Apple, MS may not be the only one making ARM laptops soon

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maurvir Steamed meat popsicle
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ukimalefu want, but shouldn't, may anyway
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I'm sure there will be google chromebooks. Commercially, I don't see other options, besides apple and MS.

Interesting would be when people can build their own ARM desktops.
maurvir Steamed meat popsicle
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I think everyone is waiting to see if Apple can pull off the ARM transition with the MBPs and MBAs. If they can, I fully expect Microsoft to once again start pushing Windows on ARM. I mean, they already have it, they just had no other customers besides themselves.

Laptops are an obvious first step, because they are so limited by their batteries. A more power efficient CPU and GPU could take laptops from a few hours of life to half a day or more - and that would be a big deal.
ukimalefu want, but shouldn't, may anyway
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But, I'm sure MS released an arm laptop, or windows surface tablet, recently. The most recent version was ok, according to a couple reviews I saw, but the first one was so limited that people still don't want to buy it.

Apple's demo of recent game running smoothly in rosetta 2 was impressive.

Going from the classic mac os to OS X, took some getting used to. Going from 680x0 to powerpc to intel, was nothing. I belive this transition will be smoother, for those who have recent Macs and all up to date software... and money.
maurvir Steamed meat popsicle
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Yes, they did - the Surface RT. Which flopped like a fish out of water due to an utter lack of native software - and the fact that you were restricted to the Microsoft App Store. Which... had no native software.

Once again, Apple took up an existing idea and "did it right" with Rosetta 2. Had Microsoft implemented something similar on the Surface RT machines, they might have taken off - rather than languishing and eventually being killed.

Which is why I said that there may be renewed interest if Apple's move works out.
TOS
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i guess i'm just ill-informed on the subject, but i don't much care about any of this

i assumed apple's shift was due to supply chain issues ... are these arm chips more powerful than x86 and other chips? is it new technology? what's the deal?
obvs Socialist isn't an epithet;it's a badge.
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Supply chain issues?

Apple is a greedy company and doesn't want to share in their profit.
TOS posted:
i guess i'm just ill-informed on the subject, but i don't much care about any of this

i assumed apple's shift was due to supply chain issues ... are these arm chips more powerful than x86 and other chips? is it new technology? what's the deal?

TSMC and Apple are accomplishing some amazing things in chip design and production, and Apple has a chance to increase power efficiency, improve performance, and make more money.
maurvir Steamed meat popsicle
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obvs posted:
Supply chain issues?

Apple is a greedy company and doesn't want to share in their profit.


This is partly true, however, I suspect that Intel has been a continual thorn in their ass for so long that they were getting fed up.
ukimalefu want, but shouldn't, may anyway
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maurvir posted:
obvs posted:
Supply chain issues?

Apple is a greedy company and doesn't want to share in their profit.


This is partly true, however, I suspect that Intel has been a continual thorn in their ass for so long that they were getting fed up.


I think both of you are right, Apple does want more money, and the chance to make a better computer architecture, which would make them more money... ok, it's the money

Unless, they keep being stupid, and don't license the tech, once they get it right. Instead of saving money by making their own chips, they could also sell those chips and/or motherboards to other computer makers, even if they don't license mac os and ios.

They couldn't compete with mac clone makers before, but now they would control everything.
ukimalefu want, but shouldn't, may anyway
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Anyway, the important thing is SOFTWARE, not hardware.

Yes, I'd like photoshop to be faster, and I'd like to play more current games, that looked better, but I do still play games and use photoshop almost everyday.

I don't have the most recent computer, and it crapped out on me again, and I still love this Mac. It's the software.

And I've used windows (the latest being windows 7). It's made by engineers for engineers who think like engineers. Not normal people. Sorry Kirk ;)

Maybe someone will say, windows 10 is better, but I won't believe it :p

The only reason I'd have to get a windows pc would be games... and photoshop. But I'd probably could do like 75% of what I do online with a chromebook, but I'd rather not depend on having internet.

It's the software!
TOS
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obvs posted:
Supply chain issues?

Apple is a greedy company and doesn't want to share in their profit.


profit? in terms of apple's overall business, the pc/laptop segment is practically a rounding error
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The thing about having a lot of money is, ironically, it makes you even greedier.
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ukimalefu posted:
And I've used windows (the latest being windows 7). It's made by engineers for engineers who think like engineers. Not normal people. Sorry Kirk ;)

I'd say its made by engineers for advertising execs who think like (poor) accountants.

And, yeah Apple's been drifting that way too for the past few iterations.
Lombo Opiofiend
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The a series that Apple cranks out are phenomenal. Imagine what they will accomplish with a TDP of 100w instead of sub 8w. They will destroy whatever intel or amd will put out.
TOS
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obvs posted:
The thing about having a lot of money is, ironically, it makes you even greedier.


i just feel like this whole thing is tied into their mobile strategy; computers are a side gig
Intel has been stagnating for a long time, and the last time they tried to shift to a new CPU architecture (Itanium); they lost their ass. Total failure. Mostly because business was too stubborn to ditch x86.

AMD in my opinion are at the top of their game in regards to x86 and their GPUs. They have been patient and executed the plan set out by Dr. Lisa Su and look what they have done; beating Intel big time at their own game, again!

I have no doubt that AMD could transition to making ARM CPUs if they needed to.

If Apple pulls this off and I am sure they will since they have loads of available cash on hand and the tech expertise; there could be a major shift in the computing landscape. I think Microsoft going full steam with Office on MacOS on ARM with feature parity with the x86 version for Windows, business people will be all over these. Energy savings are a huge deal to big mega corps. Less energy with the same performance or better performance....no brainer.

The developers really need to be behind it though. Microsoft and Adobe probably being the main key ones that need to be on board.

And let's not forget that Apple already has the AfterBurner card which is a big FPGA board. Apple could easily release a board that was just to accelerate Metal computations; so really you would only the GPU for the display driving. A lot of possible things on the horizon that *could* happen, it will be exciting to see how this pans out.

Hell Apple might even sell a MPX card that is essentially a M-series CPU bootable system. There is a lot of extra bandwidth on those MPX slots in the MacPro. Crazy crazy times ahead.
ukimalefu want, but shouldn't, may anyway
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MS Office is on iOS, and the web.

Microsoft makes software. I'm sure the full ARM/Big Sur update is ready.

Who competes with ARM? I mean, on things like phones. Not Intel.
maurvir Steamed meat popsicle
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Intel has been largely stagnant since Sandy Bridge - which is why so many of us can "get by" with nearly 7 year old computers. This is no real surprise, given Intel has been able to effectively lock AMD out of the market, but it lead to a situation where they, once again, sat on their fat ass and got lazy. Then the whole Spectre thing cropped up, and what meager gains we saw got wiped out by the mitigation strategies.

What is disappointing, however, is that the transition to ARM also means the transition away from standards based computing. Everyone will have their own bespoke SoCs, which means you will have to buy into a whole ecosystem rather than picking and choosing among the best in breed.

On the one hand, I want Apple to succeed, if for no other reason than to make Intel scared for its life, but on the other hand, I fear that if they succeed to well, it will be the end of x86 at the consumer level and the rise of the many walled gardens.
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You're right in at least one respect. This is kind of similar to the stagnation with the G4 and G5 processors.
TOS
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maurvir posted:
Intel has been largely stagnant since Sandy Bridge - which is why so many of us can "get by" with nearly 7 year old computers. This is no real surprise, given Intel has been able to effectively lock AMD out of the market, but it lead to a situation where they, once again, sat on their fat ass and got lazy. Then the whole Spectre thing cropped up, and what meager gains we saw got wiped out by the mitigation strategies.

What is disappointing, however, is that the transition to ARM also means the transition away from standards based computing. Everyone will have their own bespoke SoCs, which means you will have to buy into a whole ecosystem rather than picking and choosing among the best in breed.

On the one hand, I want Apple to succeed, if for no other reason than to make Intel scared for its life, but on the other hand, I fear that if they succeed to well, it will be the end of x86 at the consumer level and the rise of the many walled gardens.



i'm not sure walled gardens bother the vast majority of consumers
maurvir Steamed meat popsicle
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TOS posted:
maurvir posted:
Intel has been largely stagnant since Sandy Bridge - which is why so many of us can "get by" with nearly 7 year old computers. This is no real surprise, given Intel has been able to effectively lock AMD out of the market, but it lead to a situation where they, once again, sat on their fat ass and got lazy. Then the whole Spectre thing cropped up, and what meager gains we saw got wiped out by the mitigation strategies.

What is disappointing, however, is that the transition to ARM also means the transition away from standards based computing. Everyone will have their own bespoke SoCs, which means you will have to buy into a whole ecosystem rather than picking and choosing among the best in breed.

On the one hand, I want Apple to succeed, if for no other reason than to make Intel scared for its life, but on the other hand, I fear that if they succeed to well, it will be the end of x86 at the consumer level and the rise of the many walled gardens.


i'm not sure walled gardens bother the vast majority of consumers


Of course not - they are gardens after all. It's only when you decide you want to leave the garden that you realize there are no easy exits.

Interoperability is a huge thing, and something that has allowed the modern Internet to thrive. Remember the good old days of Compuserve, AOL, etc.? The same is true of computing itself. The more interoperability between operating systems and networks, the better it is for everyone. The temptation toward stagnation is reduced. We only have to look at Intel and AMD to see how eliminating competition results in stagnation.

Unfortunately, you are right. Consumers want the shiny nao, and don't think about the future. It never occurs to them that there might be features they would like better on other platforms because they are stuck, but it's a gilded cage, so they don't mind. That's why a lot of iOS users are going nuts over widgets, despite the fact that Android has had them for literally years.

So yeah, I'm not terribly thrilled to see the computing world move back into the old walled garden construct where a single choice locks you into a single ecosystem indefinitely.
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maurvir posted:
TOS posted:
maurvir posted:
Intel has been largely stagnant since Sandy Bridge - which is why so many of us can "get by" with nearly 7 year old computers. This is no real surprise, given Intel has been able to effectively lock AMD out of the market, but it lead to a situation where they, once again, sat on their fat ass and got lazy. Then the whole Spectre thing cropped up, and what meager gains we saw got wiped out by the mitigation strategies.

What is disappointing, however, is that the transition to ARM also means the transition away from standards based computing. Everyone will have their own bespoke SoCs, which means you will have to buy into a whole ecosystem rather than picking and choosing among the best in breed.

On the one hand, I want Apple to succeed, if for no other reason than to make Intel scared for its life, but on the other hand, I fear that if they succeed to well, it will be the end of x86 at the consumer level and the rise of the many walled gardens.


i'm not sure walled gardens bother the vast majority of consumers


Of course not - they are gardens after all. It's only when you decide you want to leave the garden that you realize there are no easy exits.

Interoperability is a huge thing, and something that has allowed the modern Internet to thrive. Remember the good old days of Compuserve, AOL, etc.? The same is true of computing itself. The more interoperability between operating systems and networks, the better it is for everyone. The temptation toward stagnation is reduced. We only have to look at Intel and AMD to see how eliminating competition results in stagnation.

Unfortunately, you are right. Consumers want the shiny nao, and don't think about the future. It never occurs to them that there might be features they would like better on other platforms because they are stuck, but it's a gilded cage, so they don't mind. That's why a lot of iOS users are going nuts over widgets, despite the fact that Android has had them for literally years.

So yeah, I'm not terribly thrilled to see the computing world move back into the old walled garden construct where a single choice locks you into a single ecosystem indefinitely.

While in principle I share you concerns, interoperability is unlikely to go away because the network is platform agnostic today in a way it simply was not 20 years ago. Adopting any particular OS has always locked you into an ecosystem. We have interoperability because file formats are not platform specific. We won't be going back to the days of incompatible networking and that is really the most important thing.
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Apple, MS may not be the only one making ARM laptops soon