Apple event for Nov 10 - ARM Macs

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juice Inadvertently correct
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Pariah Know Your Enemy
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ukimalefu posted:
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In addition to Macs running Apple silicon, we may also see some other Apple products, some of which have been LONG rumored. AirTags are really due, we know Apple is working on some new over-ear headphones that may get AirPod branding, and lord knows the Apple TV could stand to get an update


maybe?

I am super curious to see how Apple designs some over the ears. How will they figure out a way to make them fall right off your head?
Like mouses, Apple has no idea how to make a decent headphone.
TOS
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i'm highly suspicious of this "5x faster" crap, unless they show hard data
maurvir Steamed meat popsicle
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TOS posted:
i'm highly suspicious of this "5x faster" crap, unless they show hard data


As usual, the devil is in the details. We would need the actual details to know if that is accurate, but I seriously doubt anything out of Apple is going to beat the current generation NVidia hardware period, much less by 5x.

Maybe they mean 5X faster than an iPad?
maurvir Steamed meat popsicle
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This is, of course, the beginning of the end for Macs as general purpose computing devices. I imagine someone will eventually hack Linux on one as a bare metal install, but in reality, the days of running Linux and Windows bare metal on a Mac are almost done.

When that happens, you had better hope MacOS doesn't start to suck, because there will be no real alternative unless you want to run VMs - and even then, you are dependent on the host OS not sucking.
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If macOS started to suck, you could just get a different computer.
maurvir Steamed meat popsicle
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obvs posted:
If macOS started to suck, you could just get a different computer.


Remember the good old days, when you could just replace the operating system?
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That's something that almost never happens.
maurvir Steamed meat popsicle
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obvs posted:
That's something that almost never happens.


Perhaps, but soon it will be something that can never happen.
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Macs were good even before Boot Camp was a thing.

I am not sure Linux on Mac is as dead as you're thinking.
TOS posted:
i'm highly suspicious of this "5x faster" crap, unless they show hard data

Not hard to do if they ran it vs Intel ;) Also their platform is 100% optimized from being lock downed like none other, the same as to why game console can run specs that desktops need to be twice expensive to run at the same spec, high optimization within a locked environment. If this new chip was available to be used in homebuilt you could test truly on a linux build the speed claims

Edit: I just looked at the fine print and they don't have any information about the testing process or the hardware that was tested, only the vague claim it's X faster vs unnamed competitor, no hardware specs of the test rigs or how said rigs were tested. The only hardware specs they list along with the test procedure are when it is vs their OWN machine :squint: I wouldn't put any faith in their claim if they aren't backing it up, who do they think they are, the WH?
Pariah Know Your Enemy
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Aaron_R posted:
TOS posted:
i'm highly suspicious of this "5x faster" crap, unless they show hard data

Not hard to do if they ran it vs Intel ;) Also their platform is 100% optimized from being lock downed like none other, the same as to why game console can run specs that desktops need to be twice expensive to run at the same spec, high optimization within a locked environment. If this new chip was available to be used in homebuilt you could test truly on a linux build the speed claims

Edit: I just looked at the fine print and they don't have any information about the testing process or the hardware that was tested, only the vague claim it's X faster vs unnamed competitor, no hardware specs of the test rigs or how said rigs were tested. The only hardware specs they list along with the test procedure are when it is vs their OWN machine :squint: I wouldn't put any faith in their claim if they aren't backing it up, who do they think they are, the WH?

Apple has a long history of....er...questionable speed claims going way back. With ARM Macs it will just get worse because there will be no objective way to test the hardware .

It also occurred to me that Windows and Linux virtualization on an ARM Mac will be much slower than on an Intel Mac because the VM will have to emulate an x86 CPU instead of simply virtualising the software. It will be back to the days of Virtual PC.
dv
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Pariah posted:
Aaron_R posted:
TOS posted:
i'm highly suspicious of this "5x faster" crap, unless they show hard data

Not hard to do if they ran it vs Intel ;) Also their platform is 100% optimized from being lock downed like none other, the same as to why game console can run specs that desktops need to be twice expensive to run at the same spec, high optimization within a locked environment. If this new chip was available to be used in homebuilt you could test truly on a linux build the speed claims

Edit: I just looked at the fine print and they don't have any information about the testing process or the hardware that was tested, only the vague claim it's X faster vs unnamed competitor, no hardware specs of the test rigs or how said rigs were tested. The only hardware specs they list along with the test procedure are when it is vs their OWN machine :squint: I wouldn't put any faith in their claim if they aren't backing it up, who do they think they are, the WH?

Apple has a long history of....er...questionable speed claims going way back. With ARM Macs it will just get worse because there will be no objective way to test the hardware .

It also occurred to me that Windows and Linux virtualization on an ARM Mac will be much slower than on an Intel Mac because the VM will have to emulate an x86 CPU instead of simply virtualising the software. It will be back to the days of Virtual PC.


CPU Emulation works better than it used to, but actually Windows and Linux both have ARM ecosystems so you could pretty easily just run those.

Assuming the Apple CPUs even support proper virtualization.
Mr. T Dude extraordinaire
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The M1 is no joke.

Quote:
Apple claims the M1 to be the fastest CPU in the world. Given our data on the A14, beating all of Intel’s designs, and just falling short of AMD’s newest Zen3 chips – a higher clocked Firestorm above 3GHz, the 50% larger L2 cache, and an unleashed TDP, we can certainly believe Apple and the M1 to be able to achieve that claim.

Just to restate that, because it's worth restating. The A14 in Apple's current iPhones is already faster than Intel's fastest Desktop CPUs, and trades blows with AMD's best Ryzen 9. That's just their phone chip! The M1 will be faster, still.

The significance of this cannot be overstated. We are witnessing history in the making. Apple's current phone chips hang with the fastest desktop x86 CPUs, and do so at a fraction of the power draw. M1 will beat them out, and do so in laptops with 20 hours of battery life. That's unheard of.

At the same time, chips like the Qualcomm Snapdragon are quickly closing the gap with Intel, and who knows what's to come from the NVIDIA SoftBank merger. Even Windows on ARM is gaining momentum. One thing should be very clear by now: We have now entered the final chapter of the x86 story.

I also found this very interesting:
Quote:
x86 CPUs today still only feature a 4-wide decoder designs that is seemingly limited from going wider at this point in time due to the ISA’s inherent variable instruction length nature, making designing decoders that are able to deal with aspect of the architecture more difficult compared to the ARM ISA’s fixed-length instructions.

Sound familiar? Its RISC vs CISC all over again, but this time ARM is playing for keeps. In an age when die shrinkage yields ever diminishing returns, microarchitecture is key. The simple reality is all the investment capital is on the ARM side nowadays. And when you've got the brightest engineers, and you give them an inherently more manageable ISA to work with, whatever they manage to put together is going to be great. I don't think x86 will ever catch up.
ukimalefu want, but shouldn't, may anyway
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Pariah posted:
ukimalefu posted:
Quote:
In addition to Macs running Apple silicon, we may also see some other Apple products, some of which have been LONG rumored. AirTags are really due, we know Apple is working on some new over-ear headphones that may get AirPod branding, and lord knows the Apple TV could stand to get an update


maybe?

I am super curious to see how Apple designs some over the ears. How will they figure out a way to make them fall right off your head?
Like mouses, Apple has no idea how to make a decent headphone.


Apple owns Beats headphones. Beats sells lots. Some people seem to like them.

Apple designed Airpods Pro are considered best in class.

Older design airpos, or earbuds from any brand? yes, many people have problem with those, it's their ears, I believe, as many people do NOT complain about them. And white ear buds where the biggest trend when iPods were a new thing.
ukimalefu want, but shouldn't, may anyway
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some food for haters, hi pariah

the difference between the new macs is artificial, the cheaper MB Air, has one core less (turned off) and runs slower. There's a model with all cores active.

https://www.theverge.com/2020/11/10/215 ... erformance

I'm thinking the RAM and SSD could be faster in the pro model?

oh, and the M1 has a limitation and can't handle more than 16Gb ram, so that's why no towers and no bigger laptops

I'd also think people who use towers, aka "real pros", would like to stick with intel for a while, pros tend to not want to change the gear/apps they use for years and years
ukimalefu want, but shouldn't, may anyway
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They're also still selling 13" macbook pros with Intel processors, they are more expensive, but start with more RAM and more storage

The 16" macbook pro is also still available, Intel only.

I can't tell if there's any changes in the intel macbooks
ukimalefu want, but shouldn't, may anyway
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Could they make Macs with two M1s? or more? I mean for the big macbook and towers.

Or these things are too new to know?
ukimalefu want, but shouldn't, may anyway
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they're also still selling an intel mac mini, it costs more, but it starts with a bigger SSD
ukimalefu want, but shouldn't, may anyway
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All the apps and games Apple promises for Arm-based Macs

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Apple has announced some of the first apps and games coming to Arm-based Macs, and it includes more than a few familiar names: Adobe Lightroom and Photoshop, DaVinci Resolve, Cinema 4D, and more.

Other titles teased during Apple’s event today — where it detailed the first computers to use its Apple Silicon chips — include the code editor Nova, the kids’ coding app Hopscotch, the video calling app Mmhmm, the design app Shapr3D, all of the productivity apps from the Omni Group (such as OmniPlan and OmniGraffle), the publishing tool Affinity Publisher, the genealogy app MacFamilyTree, and the vector graphics app Vectornator. Apple previously said that Microsoft Word, Excel, and PowerPoint are being updated for these new Macs, too.

There were also a few games shown today: Baldur’s Gate 3, Beyond a Steel Sky, and Subnautica: Below Zero.

Several other apps Apple teased appeared to be ports of iPhone or iPad apps. Those include the hit game Among Us, the illustration app Procreate, the sneaker shopping app GOAT, the streaming service HBO Max, the recipes app Kitchen Stories, the photo filtering app Graphite Sketchbook, and the photo editor Darkroom.

Apple didn’t provide release dates for most of these apps, but it said that Lightroom will be available next month, and Photoshop and “other flagship” Adobe apps will launch early next year.

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ukimalefu posted:
oh, and the M1 has a limitation and can't handle more than 16Gb ram, so that's why no towers and no bigger laptops
For every migration, the first generation of Apple hardware has had some kind of issue making them unacceptable compared to subsequent Macs of the same architecture.

This seems pretty sure to be that one.
ukimalefu want, but shouldn't, may anyway
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obvs posted:
ukimalefu posted:
oh, and the M1 has a limitation and can't handle more than 16Gb ram, so that's why no towers and no bigger laptops
For every migration, the first generation of Apple hardware has had some kind of issue making them unacceptable compared to subsequent Macs of the same architecture.

This seems pretty sure to be that one.


I'm thinking one reason could be that they still want to sell the intel macs they have left, and/or, they don't have enough of the new chips.

I'm also sure there'll be an M2 next year, maybe sooner than we think. Or, as I asked previously, a multiprocessor ARM Mac.

And I can't wait for the reviews. Apple is making some big claims about how powerful those things are.
I just read the article on AnandTech. Not feeling so good about the MacPro purchase. But you never know what could happen. Perhaps apple will have a complete Motherboard swap program.

I am looking forward to Apple showing that the x86 design is the past and that ARM is the future. It will be simply amazing if Apple can compete with AMD Zen3 right out of the gate; which it looks like they will be doing.

16MB of Ram for a laptop and the MacMini is fine for now. Apple isn't targeting the content creator or other professional with these first models. Mac mini would be perfect for someone who just does basic computing.
I might buy a Mac Mini just to have a piece of history in the making.
juice Inadvertently correct
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16MB is fine for a tower as well, as long as I could swap the processor to the next generation and then add more RAM via empty slots.

I’m not holding my breath.
ukimalefu want, but shouldn't, may anyway
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avkills posted:
I just read the article on AnandTech. Not feeling so good about the MacPro purchase. But you never know what could happen. Perhaps apple will have a complete Motherboard swap program.

I am looking forward to Apple showing that the x86 design is the past and that ARM is the future. It will be simply amazing if Apple can compete with AMD Zen3 right out of the gate; which it looks like they will be doing.

16MB of Ram for a laptop and the MacMini is fine for now. Apple isn't targeting the content creator or other professional with these first models. Mac mini would be perfect for someone who just does basic computing.


I think all those ARM macs are insane, if they deliver the performance apple is promising, but yes I'd like 16 GB ram, not the base 8. And at least 1TB storage.

For me, it would be like going from kids tricycle to a formula one car. That's one reason I want to see the review, with actual comparisons between last year's macbook of the same level, and windows laptops of the same price, and the new ARM macbooks.

Not, that I'm buying one.

Last edited by ukimalefu on Wed Nov 11, 2020 3:09 pm.

ukimalefu want, but shouldn't, may anyway
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Oh, I just noticed on apple's website, the ARM macbook pro has a couple more hours of battery life... for some reason. It is a bit thicker, so maybe there's a slightly bigger battery? it also has a slightly better screen and a bit more power that would use more battery... but it doesn't?
Robert B. Dandy Highwayman
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And yet they still haven't given us a better FaceTime camera.
I like the dig Linus made of these. He said if he were an Apple user he now had 3 different machines with 3 different price points all with the same spec sheet. Asking if he should get the iPad with no touchscreen (Air), the iPad with no screen (Mini) or the iPad with a touchbar (Pro) :lol:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljApzn9YWmk
mmaverick my steady systematic decline
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$1600 (mb air)is far too much for me to spend on a completely untested system.
I’ll have to see how the reviews shake out.
juice Inadvertently correct
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In before Kirk advises to wait for version 2
mmaverick my steady systematic decline
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There’s Tin whiskers in them there hills
Well, we have some early benchmarks. The MacBook Air appears to be outperforming all existing Macs single core, and all but the Xenon Pros and the iMac with an i7 10th gen 3.8GHz 8 cores. https://www.macrumors.com/2020/11/11/m1 ... benchmark/
If I get a Mini, it would just be for the sake of having the 1st gen. I would probably fire it up, mess with it and then box it back up. Might be a worthy investment, maybe not.
ukimalefu want, but shouldn't, may anyway
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I was thinking, as Tim Cook said in this live stream, they've had 3 events in the last 2 months.

Now, I doubt they'll do anything else the rest of the year, but maybe in January. Apple used to announce new stuff in January at Macworld Expo. Maybe they'll release a couple smaller things without even saying anything. They've done it before. Maybe just some discount on Intel Macs to get rid of the inventory, just in time for xmas shopping. Or maybe not.

But gain, I think new towers would be last on the ARM Macs list.
ukimalefu want, but shouldn't, may anyway
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By the way, are we calling them ARM Macs, or Apple Silicon Macs, or M1 Macs?
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I'm sure as hell not typing out "Apple Silicon Macs" every time I want to refer to them.

ARM Macs, sure. Maybe even ARMacs. But even thinking "Apple Silicon Macs" is exhausting.
ukimalefu want, but shouldn't, may anyway
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You like rumors, I got rumors:

Future Apple Silicon Macs Rumored to Include Redesigned 14-Inch and 16-Inch MacBook Pro, 24-Inch iMac, and Smaller Mac Pro

Laptops next year (not 1st quarter), iMac late this year (huh? doubt it) or early next year (maybe) at the earliest.

Smaller Mac Pro? CONSUMER TOWER FINALLY! (I had a consumer tower, the Performa 6400, and it was AWESOME)

14 inch? when they have a 13"? and not a 15"?


Also, please don't forget, these are RUMORS, not facts.
The 14" is expected to replace the 13". My guess is the current low-end 13" AS Mac is not updated to 14" initially. Next year mid-year we get the 14" redesign on the high-end MBP only, as well as AS in the 16" MBP. Then some time after that they standardize the low-end 13" to the 14" design.

This is why I would consider a 13" MBA right now, but not the MBP.
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Apple event for Nov 10 - ARM Macs

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