Brace yourselves, the ARMs are coming

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maurvir Steamed meat popsicle
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TOS posted:
silly question: will the switchover lead to a price drop?

that's the only thing that would bring me back to mac

i'm talking huge price drop


I'm hoping there will be a lot of selling of older Intel Macs at deep discounts as well. While this 2009 MBP I fixed is still going strong, it would be nice to upgrade to a newer one for cheap.
Pariah Know Your Enemy
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TOS posted:
silly question: will the switchover lead to a price drop?

that's the only thing that would bring me back to mac

i'm talking huge price drop

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obvs To hell with toilet paper. I own a bidet
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On the plus side, with Big Sur, it's possible to log in using ADFS instead of AD.

And as far as Enterprise Mac management goes, that's really big.
dv
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TOS posted:
silly question: will the switchover lead to a price drop?

that's the only thing that would bring me back to mac

i'm talking huge price drop


Unlikely. CPU fab cost is a function of transistor count at a given process and wafer size. And in order to get high end power/performance, a competitive desktop or workstation CPU has to be built on a relatively recent, pretty-close-to-bleeding-edge fabrication process. (10nm or 14nm.)

So something like the A13 (~8 billion transistors) is almost certainly more expensive to fabricate than a quad core Intel x86-64 CPU (~2 billion transistors). And while Intel makes some profit, so will whatever company (Samsung, TMSC, etc.) that Apple subcontracts to fab their chips.

It's not really a silly question - since it's "ARM", comparisons to something the RasPi 4 (and its ~270 million transistor SoC built on an outdated and cheap 28nm process node) are inevitable. But they are also completely different beasts and are not really comparable in any real sense.
macnuke Afar
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you mean Apple has had price drops in the past?
Lombo Opiofiend
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I red somewhere that an A13 SOC cost 60$. So much less than intel.
dv
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macnuke posted:
you mean Apple has had price drops in the past?


Well... yes?

Back in the '90s, Apple would regularly lower prices on older models still in production. For instance, the IIci was $6k at introduction, but was selling (new) for less than $4k towards the end of its lifespan.

The first iMacs were $1299, but a year later they had a superior $999 model. The current entry-level iMac is $1099, which is about $700 in 1998 dollars.

The iPad was $499 at release, but the current basic 10" iPad is $329 to start. First iPhones were $499, but entry level ones now are $399.

And of course there's always open-box pricing.
dv
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Lombo posted:
I red somewhere that an A13 SOC cost 60$. So much less than intel.


Intel's basic quad cores can be had for pretty close to that, and in retail packaging. (I'd suspect the $60 figure is bulk pricing, since they're not a retail product.)

The higher end chips are similar silicon and cost about the same to make; the difference between that $75 chip and the $220 version of the exact same chip is not based on the fabrication costs, but on other shenanigans. (Some of it, like additional validation for higher-specced CPUs, is a very real cost, but a lot of it is also just charging whatever the market will bear.)
Metacell Chocolate Brahma
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macnuke posted:
you mean Apple has had price drops in the past?

I think the macbookpro I bought for $2000 would have cost something like $324,000 in 1989.
macnuke Afar
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Metacell posted:
macnuke posted:
you mean Apple has had price drops in the past?

I think the macbookpro I bought for $2000 would have cost something like $324,000 in 1989.


1989 was called a portable.. or sometimes luggable.
it sold for $6500;
so yes.. prices have plummeted
Pariah Know Your Enemy
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dv posted:
macnuke posted:
you mean Apple has had price drops in the past?


Well... yes?

Back in the '90s, Apple would regularly lower prices on older models still in production. For instance, the IIci was $6k at introduction, but was selling (new) for less than $4k towards the end of its lifespan.

The first iMacs were $1299, but a year later they had a superior $999 model. The current entry-level iMac is $1099, which is about $700 in 1998 dollars.

The iPad was $499 at release, but the current basic 10" iPad is $329 to start. First iPhones were $499, but entry level ones now are $399.

And of course there's always open-box pricing.

When the original Bondi iMac was released it really was a very good deal relative to the PC side. I was the Mac guy at CompUSA when the Bondi hit and it compared very well to the mid-line Celeron based PCs we were selling for $1000 to $1200 without a KB or mouse or monitor. The monitor was a big deal cuz back in 98 a decent 15in screen would run you near $300.
But as PC prices entered free fall the iMac advantage was short lived and very soon Mac were back to being a fairly bad buy.
ukimalefu Canadized
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Windows on ARM Macs technically possible, but unlikely. It seems that neither Microsoft or Apple care much.

https://www.theverge.com/2020/6/24/2130 ... -boot-camp
ukimalefu Canadized
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ARM is RISC? I didn't know that

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:D

https://gizmodo.com/so-just-how-powerfu ... 1844134011

OK, I know, it would take A LOT in both hardware and software for new Macs to match offering from Intel and AMD. But Apple's advantage was always software, right?
ukimalefu Canadized
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oh, one more thing, no more boot camp... and what about hackintosh? OS X for Intel will also go away, Apple won't develop it anymore...
maurvir Steamed meat popsicle
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Both Apple and Microsoft want ARM machines to herald gated communities where you can only use their respective app stores. I'm honestly amazed Bootcamp lasted as long as it did. I will not be at all surprised if it gets harder and harder to download and install software outside of an app store in MacOS.

The thing is, the ONLY thing I am worried about is the loss of ability to boot Linux. I don't care about Windows, or even x86/x64, but I do want the option to boot Linux. Long after the machine is dropped by MacOS, it can still live on as a Linux machine as long as it will boot what the user wants.
macnuke Afar
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lotsa smarty pants people in the world...
my money is on someone somewhere will say.....
if MS can run Win on ARM.
and Apple Runs MacOS on ARM.....
while they are of different architecture...they are ARM..

and it will happen.
or the Linux crowd will just port your flavor of the month Linux to AppleARM
plenty smart cookies in that crowd as well.
ukimalefu Canadized
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Ex-Intel Engineer Claims Skylake Quality Assurance Was the Reason For Apple's Big CPU Transition

Quote:
Well according to former Intel principal engineer François Piednoël, it seems Intel’s line of Skylake processors is to blame. Marketed at Intel’s line of 6th-gen Core processors, in a recent video posted to YouTube, Piednoël says the quality assurance for Intel’s Skylake processors was “more than a problem, it was abnormally bad.”

Piednoël went on to say “Basically our buddies at Apple became the number one filer of problems in the architecture,” before adding “When your customer starts finding almost as much bugs as you found yourself, you’re not leading into the right place.”

ukimalefu Canadized
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Apple promises to support Thunderbolt on its new ARM Macs

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Apple is moving away from Intel’s chipsets in favor of its new, custom-designed ARM chips — but the company is promising that it’ll still support Intel’s Thunderbolt USB-C connectivity standard on new Apple silicon computers, despite the lack of Intel processors.

“Over a decade ago, Apple partnered with Intel to design and develop Thunderbolt, and today our customers enjoy the speed and flexibility it brings to every Mac. We remain committed to the future of Thunderbolt and will support it in Macs with Apple silicon,” commented an Apple spokesperson, in a statement to The Verge.

obvs To hell with toilet paper. I own a bidet
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Apple's word about what they will support in the future is basically worthless, given what they've said and done in the past, as far as saying they remain committed to anything.
ukimalefu Canadized
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obvs posted:
Apple's word about what they will support in the future is basically worthless, given what they've said and done in the past, as far as saying they remain committed to anything.


Firewire was the besterest thing ever!

also,

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maurvir Steamed meat popsicle
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True, but in this case, I suspect they will retain the functionality, because it is actually better than any other option right now. Intel sells separate Thunderbolt controllers that are ordinary PCIe devices (though they do hog 32 lanes), which means Apple can very easily bolt them to their SoCs.

What will be interesting is whether or not Intel balks at them claiming Thunderbolt support without the Intel processor on the other end.
ukimalefu Canadized
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maurvir posted:
True, but in this case, I suspect they will retain the functionality, because it is actually better than any other option right now. Intel sells separate Thunderbolt controllers that are ordinary PCIe devices (though they do hog 32 lanes), which means Apple can very easily bolt them to their SoCs.

What will be interesting is whether or not Intel balks at them claiming Thunderbolt support without the Intel processor on the other end.


But Apple did co-develop Thunderbolt, didn't they? so... they have a say? they can support it?
jkahless Custom Title
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maurvir posted:
True, but in this case, I suspect they will retain the functionality, because it is actually better than any other option right now. Intel sells separate Thunderbolt controllers that are ordinary PCIe devices (though they do hog 32 lanes), which means Apple can very easily bolt them to their SoCs.

What will be interesting is whether or not Intel balks at them claiming Thunderbolt support without the Intel processor on the other end.


Well, you can get intel certified thunderbolt on an AMD board now, so I expect Apple will be fine.
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Brace yourselves, the ARMs are coming

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