Linux in trouble

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macnuke Afar
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https://www.zdnet.com/article/the-linux-desktop-is-in-trouble/

interesting read and calls out a some problems with Linux that would concern some.
I understand the attraction of Linux.
I also am comfortable enough usewhats in front of me. Win/Mac/Linux/UNIX
I am a user, not a programmer anymore.
and I enjoy having moved from heavy application use to light.
butit's little things in the article that would add up to keeping wary of committing to Linux.
My boyfriend keeps pushing me to Kubuntu (despite popular belief that Mint is superior), but I've learned to roll with the Windows 10 evolution path and I like the consistency and I can trust it.

He wants me to set up a PiHole server but I don't see the point, and I swear to God our first fight is problably going to be about that or something.
dv
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Betonhaus posted:
My boyfriend keeps pushing me to Kubuntu (despite popular belief that Mint is superior), but I've learned to roll with the Windows 10 evolution path and I like the consistency and I can trust it.

He wants me to set up a PiHole server but I don't see the point, and I swear to God our first fight is problably going to be about that or something.


Setting up a PiHole server doesn't require you to switch to Linux for your desktop, it just requires a Raspberry Pi, a pre-packaged linux distro to go one your memory card, and about twenty minutes to run the setup and install the pi-hole software.

You should probably do it anyway:

1) Pi-Holes are awesome.
2) Happy wife, happy life.

Or you could be all like, "well, a real man would figure it out if it was so important!" and see where that gets you. But I wouldn't recommend it.
Pariah Know Your Enemy
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This article is nonsense click bait.
The desktop environment is just a thin veneer on top and has fiddlesticks all to do with how applications are installed or packaged. Underneath it all are basically two types of Linux: One based on Debian and one based on Fedora. That's it.
Take Ubuntu and Mint as an example. Mint has three desktop offerings, Ubuntu has 4 but application installation works the same way on all of them.
There is the preferred way, precompiled binaries from the repo, then you can add a PPA for the rare bit the advanced user might want and as a last resort you can use deb files. Flat pack does offer the promise of unifying the whole thing but is only getting going but looks good for the future and will probably replace the PPA system.
This situation is nothing new. Desktop Linux has always been secondary to server Linux, which is fine. You have big corporate developers paying for all the heavy lifting and then smaller teams putting the final finish on top.
Fedora is making money, Ubuntu is making money, Mint has had a solid stream of donations coming in for years, over $200,000 with no signs of slowing down.
Desktop Linux has never been more beautiful, easy to use and as reliable as it is now and is always getting better.
The future looks bright.
Pariah posted:
This article is nonsense click bait.
The desktop environment is just a thin veneer on top and has fiddlesticks all to do with how applications are installed or packaged. Underneath it all are basically two types of Linux: One based on Debian and one based on Fedora. That's it.
Take Ubuntu and Mint as an example. Mint has three desktop offerings, Ubuntu has 4 but application installation works the same way on all of them.
There is the preferred way, precompiled binaries from the repo, then you can add a PPA for the rare bit the advanced user might want and as a last resort you can use deb files. Flat pack does offer the promise of unifying the whole thing but is only getting going but looks good for the future and will probably replace the PPA system.
This situation is nothing new. Desktop Linux has always been secondary to server Linux, which is fine. You have big corporate developers paying for all the heavy lifting and then smaller teams putting the final finish on top.
Fedora is making money, Ubuntu is making money, Mint has had a solid stream of donations coming in for years, over $200,000 with no signs of slowing down.
Desktop Linux has never been more beautiful, easy to use and as reliable as it is now and is always getting better.
The future looks bright.


I don't think you get the whole point of the article.

I'll give you a hint: it's the same reason why many people always choose an iPhone instead of figuring out which Android phone is best.
macnuke Afar
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Bingo for Betonhaus
iDaemon infinitely loopy
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ZDnet is well-known longtime Microsoft Boit-lickers.

And Betonhaus says he “trusts Windows 10”. Insanity.

I’m inclined to agree with Pariah’s point-of-view. Article is clickbait. And FUD.

Last edited by iDaemon on Tue Apr 16, 2019 2:23 pm.

iDaemon posted:
ZDnet is well-known longtime Microsoft Boit-lickers.

And Betonhaus says he “trusts Windows 10”. Insanity.

I’m inclined to agree with Pariah’s point-if-view. Article is clickbait. And FUD.

Let me put it this way. Would you better trust a (let's assume Canadian) major bank that has a reputation for stability and guarantees it's client's accounts in the very rare case of an error on it's part, or would you trust a Bitcoin bank that at any moment can lose access to all of your funds because the CEO was the only person who had the master wallet password and died under mysterious circumstances in a foreign country shortly after said wallet was drained?

Microsoft has graduated into an institution, one that has to balance the needs and demands of quite possibly a billion users who have almost an infinite number of problems and expectations. They simply cannot do shortcuts or hack jobs, and with Windows 10 has done an amazing job of modernizing their development procedures and practices. Windows XP was never made to handle this. Windows Vista was a disaster. Windows 7 could keep from stumbling, but it was bogged down by so much legacy that it simply couldn't adapt to the future. Windows 8 rushed ahead and forgot about it's users, but Windows 10 is taking it's time to evolve. Windows runs banks. Windows runs governments. Windows runs plants. EVERYTHING relies on Windows, and Microsoft has been in the game long enough to know that if they pull a Boeing to please their shareholders then they are risking their very future.

So yes, I trust Windows 10.

And again, it's not a matter if Windows can be trusted, but that it has an aegis of support and conformity that is a beacon even the most technophobic can stumble towards. Want to buy a computer? Go to any store, it will be running Windows. Want an app, it will install on Windows. Need a new computer? It's Windows. It breaks? Even your neighbour's pot-addled nephew probably knows enough to fix it. Turbotax runs on Windows. Fortnite runs on Windows. Office very obviously runs on Windows. No thinking required.

Meanwhile Linux, everything has an extra step. Want a computer? You can still run pretty much any one, but it won't have Linux installed - and no guarantee that it won't have an exotic component that doesn't un under Linux. Touchscreens are questionable. 2-in-ones are a no-go. Nvidia doesn't and may never play nice. Then you have to choose your distro. Ubuntu? Linux Mint? Elementary? Red Hat? You got to google which one is the best, stumbling upon flamewars and technobabble that just confuses you further. Then you also have to decide on your DWM, even if you don't know what the hell that is. Kubuntu? Gnome? The default? What's this about Unity being human waste but you can use it now? How do I get my tax software on it? If something breaks where do i go to get it fixed? My kids are crying that they can't play that shooter-builder game thingy that their friends are on? What? I can use wine? fiddlesticks that I'll just jug the vodka.
Pariah Know Your Enemy
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The thing is LotDt is fine as a minority platform. FOSS software does not operate under the same economics that closed source software does. Market share is utterly irrelevant.
All Linux needs is enough funding for the heavy lifting, enough interested developers and a numerically growing user base.
GNU/Linux has that.
Sure, Linux has it's nagging issues but so do Windows and OSX. Name a major software project that does not have certain nagging issues somewhere.
The world runs on Linux, for every back-end server running Windows there are ten running Linux. Linux kicked Windows ass in the server world and commercial Unix too. I would bring up phones but that would just be cruel.
I want Linux to remain a niche player so it does not become a comprised, lowest common denominator human waste show like Windows.
If for some reason I could not use Linux I would suck it up and get a Mac because I don't trust Windows. I do not trust their update process, if I wanted a stick fiddling rolling release OS I'd be running Arch, not Mint. I don't want my details being spewed across the internet to literally dozens of ip addresses being sniffed for what? No one really knows.
At a fundamental level MS does not understand design, they never have and I doubt they ever will. You look ate the system prefs on a Mac and its laid out in an attractive and very logical way, you look at the system prefs in Mint and you see the same thing and then you look at the control center of Windows and get a load of ugly, logic defying entries. Artless and hamfisted all the way.
Windows is gross.
maurvir Steamed meat popsicle
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That's the thing. WIndows 10 is probably the most stable Windows ever produced. The user interface, however, is a complete human waste show. It has elements tracking all the way back to Windows 3.1 combined with the very latest design elements. Menagerie is too kind a word for this. If you can get past that, however, it's actually fairly solid.

The irony is that I defy anyone to actually use Windows 10 on a tablet without resorting to stupid tricks, and that was supposed to be the whole point to the new interface. As soon as you need to do anything complex, you are dropped back into "old Windows" style apps and controls.
maurvir posted:
That's the thing. WIndows 10 is probably the most stable Windows ever produced. The user interface, however, is a complete human waste show. It has elements tracking all the way back to Windows 3.1 combined with the very latest design elements. Menagerie is too kind a word for this. If you can get past that, however, it's actually fairly solid.

The irony is that I defy anyone to actually use Windows 10 on a tablet without resorting to stupid tricks, and that was supposed to be the whole point to the new interface. As soon as you need to do anything complex, you are dropped back into "old Windows" style apps and controls.

Less and less though. They moved Font Book over recently. It just takes time for them to port everything, it's not like they can just export and reformat all toggles and settings like an excel sheet.
Pariah Know Your Enemy
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Betonhaus posted:
maurvir posted:
That's the thing. WIndows 10 is probably the most stable Windows ever produced. The user interface, however, is a complete human waste show. It has elements tracking all the way back to Windows 3.1 combined with the very latest design elements. Menagerie is too kind a word for this. If you can get past that, however, it's actually fairly solid.

The irony is that I defy anyone to actually use Windows 10 on a tablet without resorting to stupid tricks, and that was supposed to be the whole point to the new interface. As soon as you need to do anything complex, you are dropped back into "old Windows" style apps and controls.

Less and less though. They moved Font Book over recently. It just takes time for them to port everything, it's not like they can just export and reformat all toggles and settings like an excel sheet.

Microsoft made a good start with the win95 desktop but then basically did no improvements for 20 stick fiddling years. All they did was essentially build new themes for their stale old DE for XP, Vista and 7. Now they are in a panic trying to develop a modern desktop because they did not do what Apple and the various Linux distros did which was a steady pace of iterative improvements over the years. Also they are on a fools errand trying to develop a desktop environment that works well on both WMP and touch interfaces. Touch devices and WMP devices are fundamentally different and my assertion is that you cannot make a DE that is excellent on both.
MS gets absolutely no credit for me for finally getting their damned OS stable, stability has been a granted everywhere but Windows for 15 years, at least.
macnuke Afar
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I'll still trust the basic OS of macOS or WindowsX long term before I stake it on Linux..... and if my livelihood was at stake... it wouldn't be Linux.
Metacell Chocolate Brahma
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Linux is much more trustworthy, that's why the internet runs on it. If it ran on Windows, we'd have 100x as many problems every day. But realize, from the beginning, it was never a commercial OS. That's the whole point of it...it's free, in both respects.
macnuke Afar
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saying the internet runs on linux makes it better than the other OS's is well..
you only have one thing to do.
maurvir Steamed meat popsicle
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Metacell posted:
Linux is much more trustworthy, that's why the internet runs on it. If it ran on Windows, we'd have 100x as many problems every day. But realize, from the beginning, it was never a commercial OS. That's the whole point of it...it's free, in both respects.


Free, yes, however that stability didn't come entirely from volunteers. Flotillas of corporate developers have invested hundreds of thousands of hours into Linux because they realized it could supplant Unix - which it did. IBM alone has contributed a massive amount of code to Linux.

Of course, it's still free, which means you can take advantage of that largess. :up:
dv
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macnuke posted:
saying the internet runs on linux makes it better than the other OS's is well..
you only have one thing to do.


If you're talking about which OS to stake a livelihood on, people in my line of work already made that decision and chose Linux. Like, gazillions of dollars. It's insane.

It's almost like the best tool for one job isn't necessarily the best tool for another. But that's nonsense. :p ;)
Pariah Know Your Enemy
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macnuke posted:
I'll still trust the basic OS of macOS or WindowsX long term before I stake it on Linux..... and if my livelihood was at stake... it wouldn't be Linux.

Linux ain't going anywhere. It is the foundation our modern information technology is based on. Heck, MS felt the need to implement a Linux solution inside Windows.
Linux is more reliable on a day to day basis and more reliable in the mid-term, you can't get a feature stable version of either Windows or OSX that will be supported for 5 years but you can with Linux and long term, well Linux runs on more devices than anything else by an order of magnitude.
GNU Linux is far more critical to running our tech dependent world than Windows or OSX could ever hope to be. It ain't going anywhere.
macnuke Afar
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Ok.. it's the new system 7
maurvir Steamed meat popsicle
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macnuke posted:
Ok.. it's the new system 7


Uh, no. Linux is practically the antitheses of System 7 in just about every conceivable way; both good and bad.
Pariah Know Your Enemy
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All I can say is this...
I am lazy, not all that technically knowledgeable and cut my computing teeth using Macs so aesthetics and good design matter to me.
I have been using Mint for over 6 years now and I find it dead easy to use, my wife has been running Mint for over 4 years now and never has issues and both my daughters having been using Mint for over 2 years and they never come to me with problems.
I understand that there are lots of real world reasons why Linux is not right for a lot of people. But ease of use and reliability are not those reasons. I would argue that, at this point in time, Linux Mint offers an easier to use and more unified desktop experience than Window10 does.
dv
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Counterpoint: my brother finally switched to Windows 10 from Xubuntu, which he had been using since 2013. He's really happy because he can use his laptop to watch all the movies he bought on the Microsoft Store (through his XBox) now.

Some people have simple but specific needs.
macnuke Afar
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my needs are simple now... I either have machines specific to the task for work.. or I use what's in front of me.
I play a varied amount of games.
many not available for the linux OS.
perhaps one day.
but as they say... not today.
Metacell Chocolate Brahma
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Like always, Windows supports the largest range of consumer options. That's always been its sole advantage.
Betonhaus posted:
I'll give you a hint: it's the same reason why many people always choose an iPhone instead of figuring out which Android phone is best.

That's quite easy, any of them that cost several hundred dollars less but do more than iPhone can. :p
Aaron_R posted:
Betonhaus posted:
I'll give you a hint: it's the same reason why many people always choose an iPhone instead of figuring out which Android phone is best.

That's quite easy, any of them that cost several hundred dollars less but do more than iPhone can. :p

And yet they buy the iPhone. If you figure out that riddle you figure out a lot of stuff.
dv
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Betonhaus posted:
Aaron_R posted:
Betonhaus posted:
I'll give you a hint: it's the same reason why many people always choose an iPhone instead of figuring out which Android phone is best.

That's quite easy, any of them that cost several hundred dollars less but do more than iPhone can. :p

And yet they buy the iPhone. If you figure out that riddle you figure out a lot of stuff.


It's not complicated:

1) Devil you know vs. the devil you don't.
2) Ecosystem lock-in.
3) Some people actually *gasp* prefer iOS.
user Stupid cockwomble
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I've had both. iOS is far superior.
dv
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user posted:
I've had both. iOS is far superior.


*gasp*
maurvir Steamed meat popsicle
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user posted:
I've had both. iOS is far superior.


I have as well, and I agree. iOS would be my go-to choice if they would allow you to easily side-load apps that they won't allow in the App store. Unfortunately, if you want a web browser other than Safari, and yes, I know there are others, but they all have to use Safari, you are toast. Similarly if you want to run other things that go counter to the Apple philosophy.

If the EU ever forces Apple to allow side-loads or loosen App store restrictions, I would dump my Android in a heartbeat and get an iPhone.
Speaking of Linux and the Mac, have you seen Linus latest video. He makes a Mac with Ryzen using Linux as a springboard
Apple won't like this... - Run MacOS on ANY PC
Aaron_R posted:
Speaking of Linux and the Mac, have you seen Linus latest video. He makes a Mac with Ryzen using Linux as a springboard
Apple won't like this... - Run MacOS on ANY PC


Love it.
user Stupid cockwomble
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Some things in that video I might use to upgrade my hakkie - I've been having trouble getting the High Sierra install to go.
avkills posted:
Aaron_R posted:
Speaking of Linux and the Mac, have you seen Linus latest video. He makes a Mac with Ryzen using Linux as a springboard
Apple won't like this... - Run MacOS on ANY PC


Love it.


The skinny guy is enthusiastic as fiddlesticks.
He’s kind of a spazz, yes. But his videos are pretty good. I want to pop into their studio the next time I am visiting my in laws at the coast, but I doubt they would invite me in.
macnuke Afar
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his YouTube started back in November 2008 and as of 2019 it has over 9 million subscribers amassing over 3 billion views since then. In a day the channel gets an average of 2.6 million views per day and this in turn generates around $10,400 per day which adds up to around $3.8 million a year from YouTube ads. Linus usually has direct advertising at the end of majority of his videos which usually pay much higher than YouTube ads.


he's got a little bank it seems.. Linus is the skinny guy
Pariah Know Your Enemy
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macnuke posted:
his YouTube started back in November 2008 and as of 2019 it has over 9 million subscribers amassing over 3 billion views since then. In a day the channel gets an average of 2.6 million views per day and this in turn generates around $10,400 per day which adds up to around $3.8 million a year from YouTube ads. Linus usually has direct advertising at the end of majority of his videos which usually pay much higher than YouTube ads.


he's got a little bank it seems.. Linus is the skinny guy

LOL, he has a bigger audience than every cable news channel.
macnuke Afar
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I've watched the guys reviews for years.
Him and Linux are not close friends tho.
I do think it's a great hack they did.
then again. human waste like that is why i have watched him.
maurvir Steamed meat popsicle
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It's a shame you have to go to that much effort to run MacOS in a VM. I did note that because they passed the nVidia card to the VM directly, you still run into the need for the web drivers, and of course, Mojave won't run at all. However, it does seem to solve a lot of the other blatherskite issues you run into with chipsets.
macnuke Afar
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let's be realist. in the days of the clone wars... Apple lost plenty sales of hardware.
you and the world know dam good and well that Tim Apple wants to own all the sand you play in.
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Linux in trouble

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