the potential destructiveness of electric vehicles

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TOS
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the potential destructiveness of electric vehicles

Post by TOS »

german auto sector bracing for major disruptions as shift to electric vehicles progresses

The completed combustion engine fitted into a BMW M5 is a 1,200-piece puzzle that weighs more than 400 pounds. There are about 150 moving parts whose interlocking precision can catapult a six-figure sports car to 60 miles per hour in 3.3 seconds. The engine hulking under the bright lights of the vast BMW factory hall in Dingolfing, Germany, has come together from a web of hundreds of suppliers and many, many hands.

The electric-vehicle motor produced in the same factory is different in almost every respect: light enough for a single person to lift, with just two dozen parts in total, and lacking an exhaust, transmission, or fuel tank. The battery cells themselves are mostly an industrial commodity, products bought in bulk from someone else. No one brags about the unique power of BMW’s electric drivetrain.


quite interesting ... not only is this about potential job losses, but also branding issues

how will carmarkers differentiate their brands when their power plants are all off-the-shelf batteries and motors from asian suppliers?
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Post by macnuke »

it's going to be worth more to strip a building of it's wires before tearing it down.
we have an empty hospital here in town.. it's slowly losing its unused wires by theft.
price of copper might make a little jump.

but yeah.. you calculate the manpower used to make engine drivetrain and all the components to make it work. that's a lot of people that are going to be outa work.

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Post by user »

shitheads here just proposed doubling the tax on electric vehicles "to make up for lost gas tax revenues"
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Post by ukimalefu »

I'll never believe that the oil industry has not already invested heavily into alternative energy sources, making batteries, etc.

Job losses? great conservative topic Image. Part of the price of progress, unfortunately as it may be. It has happened before and it will happen again Image

Branding issues? you know what makes Apple phones and laptop batteries last the same or even more every year, despite batteries being slightly smaller? choosing more efficient parts AND developing better software to manage the power. Android phone makers just say "our battery has more milliamps". Car makers could do that, but they prefer to put ads on your car's screen.

And I believe Tesla is only buying (some) batteries from Panasonic because their megafactory isn't complete yet.

But I guess car companies can also compete with design and price. Some electric cars have been announced that could compete with Tesla's offerings, but they're still prototypes, concepts.
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Post by juice »

user wrote: shitheads here just proposed doubling the tax on electric vehicles "to make up for lost gas tax revenues"

It is an issue. Gas taxes pay for road and bridge maintenance. More efficient vehicles means less funds for infrastructure unless the tax system is refined.
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Post by ukimalefu »

It will take a while before ICE vehicle makers and gas companies have to worry about something, I mean, they have time to adapt. They would idiots if they haven't started to think about it.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electri ... by_country

That link has numbers for 2018, so lets say that this year, in China 1% of their cars are electric, and in the US 0,5%.
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Post by dv »

ukimalefu wrote: It will take a while before ICE vehicle makers and gas companies have to worry about something, I mean, they have time to adapt. They would idiots if they haven't started to think about it.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electri ... by_country

That link has numbers for 2018, so lets say that this year, in China 1% of their cars are electric, and in the US 0,5%.


The companies will be fine. They don't care about the employees, though.
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Post by avkills »

Everyone knows that big oil has an engine design that runs on water hidden in some deep dark warehouse. ;)

My guess is that the more and more e-vehicles are adopted, the idiots in the Government will start punishing those who do not have electric vehicles to make up for the gas tax losses; in other words a short term fix for a long term problem.

Probably should just start thinking about a e-vehicle usage tax that is collected every month; in the long run it is the only way to keep revenue coming in for road infrastructure maintenance.
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Post by ukimalefu »

dv wrote:
ukimalefu wrote: It will take a while before ICE vehicle makers and gas companies have to worry about something, I mean, they have time to adapt. They would idiots if they haven't started to think about it.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electri ... by_country

That link has numbers for 2018, so lets say that this year, in China 1% of their cars are electric, and in the US 0,5%.


The companies will be fine. They don't care about the employees, though.


You're not wrong. But they'll keep making ICE vehicles only as long as they make money from them.

An... "organization" that exists only to give people jobs... .... I think that's called a communist government.
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Post by Ribtor »

Make all driver's license holders pay a regular tax for roads. They can pay a yearly lump sum when they renew or they can have it included in their state taxes.
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Post by ukimalefu »

avkills wrote: Everyone knows that big oil has an engine design that runs on water hidden in some deep dark warehouse. ;)

My guess is that the more and more e-vehicles are adopted, the idiots in the Government will start punishing those who do not have electric vehicles to make up for the gas tax losses; in other words a short term fix for a long term problem.

Probably should just start thinking about a e-vehicle usage tax that is collected every month; in the long run it is the only way to keep revenue coming in for road infrastructure maintenance.


I believe some places have implemented especial taxes for solar panels for similar reasons.

Another way to see it is: no good deed goes unpunished. I mean, want to save money and benefit the environment? sorry, gotta pay for that.
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Post by Pariah »

Something else to think about is the collapse of car culture as we know it. That could be another real problem for car makers.
Imagine a world where cars are just viewed as transportation tools.
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Post by maurvir »

Pariah wrote: Something else to think about is the collapse of car culture as we know it. That could be another real problem for car makers.
Imagine a world where cars are just viewed as transportation tools.


There is nothing to prevent an electric version of car culture. In fact, electric vehicles allow for more opportunities to mod vehicles, not less. You do miss out on the "big sound", though.
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Post by Pariah »

maurvir wrote:
Pariah wrote: Something else to think about is the collapse of car culture as we know it. That could be another real problem for car makers.
Imagine a world where cars are just viewed as transportation tools.


There is nothing to prevent an electric version of car culture. In fact, electric vehicles allow for more opportunities to mod vehicles, not less. You do miss out on the "big sound", though.

That big sound is a big part of it.
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Post by dv »

Pariah wrote: Something else to think about is the collapse of car culture as we know it. That could be another real problem for car makers.
Imagine a world where cars are just viewed as transportation tools.


Roads are full of unmodified, disposable vehicles used for commuting, and when something expensive breaks, they go to a scrapyard. As befits a tool with a designed lifespan and a specific purpose.

Traditional Car Culture is, and always has been, a relatively small minority of drivers, most of whom are now over 40 and too busy complaining about automatic transmissions to police the toxic gatekeepers.
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Post by juice »

manual transmission 4 eva
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Post by DukeofNuke »

Imagine a world where cars are just viewed as transportation tools.


notice the stands ...

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https://www.foxnews.com/auto/heres-why- ... mpty-seats
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Post by iDaemon »

http://www.motoringfile.com/2019/04/08/ ... interview/

Recent AutoNews interview excerpted. Link has link to full interview.

Automotive News sat down with the head of the MINI brand Peter Schwarzenbauer who was recently announced to be moving to a new role within the BMW Group. After overseeing the brand and its record sales for six years, he’s now tasked with one final goal – to bring the Electric MINI to market later this year.

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Post by Pariah »

DukeofNuke wrote:
Imagine a world where cars are just viewed as transportation tools.


notice the stands ...

Image
https://www.foxnews.com/auto/heres-why- ... mpty-seats

NASCAR has gone to seed.
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Post by iDaemon »

Bah. That’s a trial heat on a rainy day.

And the cars plug in.

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Post by user »

juice wrote:
user wrote: shitheads here just proposed doubling the tax on electric vehicles "to make up for lost gas tax revenues"

It is an issue. Gas taxes pay for road and bridge maintenance. More efficient vehicles means less funds for infrastructure unless the tax system is refined.

I'm sure it's an issue, but you know they could instead not depend on fossil fuel revenues and not pull stunts that discourage EV ownership.
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Post by macnuke »

it's not like they are using those fuel tax dollars on our highways anymore.
go for a drive across 'murca .... it's falling the fiddlesticks apart and a human waste ton of potholes and bandaids.

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Post by avkills »

dv wrote:
Pariah wrote: Something else to think about is the collapse of car culture as we know it. That could be another real problem for car makers.
Imagine a world where cars are just viewed as transportation tools.


Roads are full of unmodified, disposable vehicles used for commuting, and when something expensive breaks, they go to a scrapyard. As befits a tool with a designed lifespan and a specific purpose.

Traditional Car Culture is, and always has been, a relatively small minority of drivers, most of whom are now over 40 and too busy complaining about automatic transmissions to police the toxic gatekeepers.


Whaaaaaa???

:lol:
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Post by dv »

avkills wrote:
dv wrote:
Pariah wrote: Something else to think about is the collapse of car culture as we know it. That could be another real problem for car makers.
Imagine a world where cars are just viewed as transportation tools.


Roads are full of unmodified, disposable vehicles used for commuting, and when something expensive breaks, they go to a scrapyard. As befits a tool with a designed lifespan and a specific purpose.

Traditional Car Culture is, and always has been, a relatively small minority of drivers, most of whom are now over 40 and too busy complaining about automatic transmissions to police the toxic gatekeepers.


Whaaaaaa???

:lol:


What, you think I'm kidding?
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Post by macnuke »

Holley quads running rich require a clutch

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Post by obvs »

dv wrote:
avkills wrote:
dv wrote:
Pariah wrote: Something else to think about is the collapse of car culture as we know it. That could be another real problem for car makers.
Imagine a world where cars are just viewed as transportation tools.


Roads are full of unmodified, disposable vehicles used for commuting, and when something expensive breaks, they go to a scrapyard. As befits a tool with a designed lifespan and a specific purpose.

Traditional Car Culture is, and always has been, a relatively small minority of drivers, most of whom are now over 40 and too busy complaining about automatic transmissions to police the toxic gatekeepers.


Whaaaaaa???

:lol:


What, you think I'm kidding?
Confirmation bias.

I like it, so everyone I know likes it, so everyone likes it.
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Post by dv »

obvs wrote:
dv wrote:
avkills wrote:
dv wrote:
Pariah wrote: Something else to think about is the collapse of car culture as we know it. That could be another real problem for car makers.
Imagine a world where cars are just viewed as transportation tools.


Roads are full of unmodified, disposable vehicles used for commuting, and when something expensive breaks, they go to a scrapyard. As befits a tool with a designed lifespan and a specific purpose.

Traditional Car Culture is, and always has been, a relatively small minority of drivers, most of whom are now over 40 and too busy complaining about automatic transmissions to police the toxic gatekeepers.


Whaaaaaa???

:lol:


What, you think I'm kidding?
Confirmation bias.

I like it, so everyone I know likes it, so everyone likes it.


But how do you not notice other peoples' eyes glazing over when you say more than one sentence about a car?
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Post by avkills »

dv wrote:
avkills wrote:
dv wrote:
Pariah wrote: Something else to think about is the collapse of car culture as we know it. That could be another real problem for car makers.
Imagine a world where cars are just viewed as transportation tools.


Roads are full of unmodified, disposable vehicles used for commuting, and when something expensive breaks, they go to a scrapyard. As befits a tool with a designed lifespan and a specific purpose.

Traditional Car Culture is, and always has been, a relatively small minority of drivers, most of whom are now over 40 and too busy complaining about automatic transmissions to police the toxic gatekeepers.


Whaaaaaa???

:lol:


What, you think I'm kidding?


Of course not! I am in that exact demographic and there is now way in hell I would buy a sports car without one (unless I could afford a super exotic one that goes so fast it has to be automatic or paddle shifters)

So if someone wants to donate a Koenigsegg or a McClaren to me; I will happily give up my manual. :D
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Post by Pariah »

Anymore manuals are an anachronism. Modern automatics shift better and smarter than anyone but expert level drivers.
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Post by macnuke »

but how can you have a hot rod without a clutch?

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Post by Kirk »

On the original question, I expect 8000 Series aluminum alloys will be used more in the future. The weight savings will be attractive for moving vehicles.
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Post by TOS »

one wonders if the business model will potentially be different for electric vehicles

for instance the dealer network approach is so bloody archaic and corrupt, not to mention there's a subprime car loan apocalypse waiting to burst

volvo is running a car-as-subscription model, i'll be interested to see if that changes
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Post by user »

I'm sure that eventually it will change. Stunts like that tax increase I mentioned and the current dealerships keeping Tesla out of their States will help to push it that way.
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Post by dv »

https://jalopnik.com/surveillance-video ... 1834211204

And apparently sometimes they just explode.

Does Toyota make an EV yet?
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