Some of you have to be camera nerds, right?

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Some of you have to be camera nerds, right?

Post by macaddict4life »

Seriously considering picking up a Canon EOS M50. Mirrorless, compact, not too heavy, and sounds like good image quality. Downsides from reviews include lousy 4K video performance (recording video on my camera being something I do not do at all), and not terribly impressive battery life. I can get a really good price on the body locally (like $150 below B&H/Amazon prices).

My friend recommended a Tamron 18-200mm with optical image stabilization, which gives us the camera's new dual-IS system, but provides a great, flexible lens. He said he has their similar DSLR mount 18-300mm, and it's the only lens he owns. However I can get big discounts on actual Canon gear here, whereas that lens is pretty close to the US price, so it's adding about $100 to the price of the body + the Canon 18-150mm, and about $150 to the price of the body + the 15-45mm kit lens + the Canon 55-200mm lens. He suspects the kit lens isn't great quality, though reviews I've read seem mostly positive on it. He also suggested that one flexible lens means less lens swapping, which also means less room for damage, a valid concern.

Long term I could definitely see picking up something specialty lenses, in particular low light and macro. I'd probably stick with EF-Ms, rather than EF lenses with an adaptor.

Anyone have any experience with the mirrorless cameras, and the Canons in particular? Any thoughts on lenses and what's worth it?
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Post by user »

Tamron does make good stuff. They tend to be a little heavier and less elegant than Canon. 18-200 is quite a long throw for a lens, so you can't expect the best sharpness and quality through the whole range - might not be something you'd notice as a casual photographer. A pro would never use one for serious shooting, but then, it used to be that a pro would never use a zoom, either.

I had a kit lens with my Canon Digital Rebel. It was effective, the barrel was not as nice as the one on my 28-80 2.8 USM on my film 10S. I missed that lens the whole time I was using the Rebel.

Lens swapping is not such an issue. The body is designed for it. It's a pain turning the camera off every time (something about attracting dust to the sensor). You'll find yourself with one lens on the body 90% of the time and lugging the other in the bag. Which one you use the most depends on your vision as a photographer. Some folks prefer close, wide-angle shots, some prefer the compression and privacy of the long focal lengths.
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Post by Vulture »

MacAddict4Life wrote: Seriously considering picking up a Canon EOS M50. Mirrorless, compact, not too heavy, and sounds like good image quality. Downsides from reviews include lousy 4K video performance (recording video on my camera being something I do not do at all), and not terribly impressive battery life. I can get a really good price on the body locally (like $150 below B&H/Amazon prices).

My friend recommended a Tamron 18-200mm with optical image stabilization, which gives us the camera's new dual-IS system, but provides a great, flexible lens. He said he has their similar DSLR mount 18-300mm, and it's the only lens he owns. However I can get big discounts on actual Canon gear here, whereas that lens is pretty close to the US price, so it's adding about $100 to the price of the body + the Canon 18-150mm, and about $150 to the price of the body + the 15-45mm kit lens + the Canon 55-200mm lens. He suspects the kit lens isn't great quality, though reviews I've read seem mostly positive on it. He also suggested that one flexible lens means less lens swapping, which also means less room for damage, a valid concern.

Long term I could definitely see picking up something specialty lenses, in particular low light and macro. I'd probably stick with EF-Ms, rather than EF lenses with an adaptor.

Anyone have any experience with the mirrorless cameras, and the Canons in particular? Any thoughts on lenses and what's worth it?


How much are you willing to spend when all is said and done? I think there is a better choice for mirrorless if you tell me what the price point is. Also, it matters most if you're adamant about buying canon EF mount lenses or going with a different brand altogether with different mount.
Let me add that one camera I would consider about going serious mirrorless is the Fuji XH1, which can be had now at a huge discount compared to what it used to cost and what you're getting. And, even at about $1200 for the body with a vertical grip and no lens, that's still half of what I ended up paying for my DSLR camera. Maybe you were thinking to pay more like $800 for the total package, and if so, I guess the Canon would be ok until you got sick of it. Nothing against Canon as a brand, just that particular model.

The DSLR I have is the 5D Mark IV, and I still really love that camera. I have only three economical lenses to choose from, and the one I keep on there about 85% of the time is the 50mm 1.8, and although mirrorless is finally burgeoning into serious cameras, I'd consider buying one maybe in at least 2 years if I really thought the SLR route was not my thing anymore because of speed and weight and perhaps possible added features in the future.

Okay, last point about the Fuji, if you want ultimate mirrorless Fuji, you could just splurge a little more and get the XT3, which is newer than the XH1 and has image stabilization in camera for better photos. Or, you could be like, nah, screw it I'll just go Canon M50 and it will be fine for now. Either decision is valid.
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Post by Donkey Butter »

If you are going to keep the same lens on there the whole time why get an SLR at all. And if you are okay shooting with an 18-200 with a veritable aperture than why not just go with a PowerShot G3 X.

The G3 has a 24–600mm f/2.8–5.6 Optical Zoom Lens, decent battery life and gets decent reviews.

(I've never shot with this camera so can't speak from experience, though I did like my powershot cameras from back in the day. Currently I shoot with a 5D4 and while I love it, and would recommend it to anyone looking for a DSLR, it's probably far bigger than you are looking for)
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Post by macaddict4life »

Vulture wrote:
MacAddict4Life wrote: Seriously considering picking up a Canon EOS M50. Mirrorless, compact, not too heavy, and sounds like good image quality. Downsides from reviews include lousy 4K video performance (recording video on my camera being something I do not do at all), and not terribly impressive battery life. I can get a really good price on the body locally (like $150 below B&H/Amazon prices).

My friend recommended a Tamron 18-200mm with optical image stabilization, which gives us the camera's new dual-IS system, but provides a great, flexible lens. He said he has their similar DSLR mount 18-300mm, and it's the only lens he owns. However I can get big discounts on actual Canon gear here, whereas that lens is pretty close to the US price, so it's adding about $100 to the price of the body + the Canon 18-150mm, and about $150 to the price of the body + the 15-45mm kit lens + the Canon 55-200mm lens. He suspects the kit lens isn't great quality, though reviews I've read seem mostly positive on it. He also suggested that one flexible lens means less lens swapping, which also means less room for damage, a valid concern.

Long term I could definitely see picking up something specialty lenses, in particular low light and macro. I'd probably stick with EF-Ms, rather than EF lenses with an adaptor.

Anyone have any experience with the mirrorless cameras, and the Canons in particular? Any thoughts on lenses and what's worth it?


How much are you willing to spend when all is said and done? I think there is a better choice for mirrorless if you tell me what the price point is. Also, it matters most if you're adamant about buying canon EF mount lenses or going with a different brand altogether with different mount.
Let me add that one camera I would consider about going serious mirrorless is the Fuji XH1, which can be had now at a huge discount compared to what it used to cost and what you're getting. And, even at about $1200 for the body with a vertical grip and no lens, that's still half of what I ended up paying for my DSLR camera. Maybe you were thinking to pay more like $800 for the total package, and if so, I guess the Canon would be ok until you got sick of it. Nothing against Canon as a brand, just that particular model.

The DSLR I have is the 5D Mark IV, and I still really love that camera. I have only three economical lenses to choose from, and the one I keep on there about 85% of the time is the 50mm 1.8, and although mirrorless is finally burgeoning into serious cameras, I'd consider buying one maybe in at least 2 years if I really thought the SLR route was not my thing anymore because of speed and weight and perhaps possible added features in the future.

Okay, last point about the Fuji, if you want ultimate mirrorless Fuji, you could just splurge a little more and get the XT3, which is newer than the XH1 and has image stabilization in camera for better photos. Or, you could be like, nah, screw it I'll just go Canon M50 and it will be fine for now. Either decision is valid.

Before I picked up that Fuji mirrorless, I would just go for a DSLR. I looked at the low-end Canon DSLRs, but from the reading I've done the M50 represents a nicer camera and a more impressive feature set, unless I'm going further up the DSLR range. I'm leaning toward the M50 specifically because it represents a good balance between price, features, and size. I'm also, for a variety of reasons, inclined to stick to Canon cameras, whether buying a mirrorless camera or a DSLR. If I were looking at other brands I'd probably be looking at Sony first, but I'm really not.
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Post by macaddict4life »

Donkey Butter wrote: If you are going to keep the same lens on there the whole time why get an SLR at all. And if you are okay shooting with an 18-200 with a veritable aperture than why not just go with a PowerShot G3 X.

The G3 has a 24–600mm f/2.8–5.6 Optical Zoom Lens, decent battery life and gets decent reviews.

(I've never shot with this camera so can't speak from experience, though I did like my powershot cameras from back in the day. Currently I shoot with a 5D4 and while I love it, and would recommend it to anyone looking for a DSLR, it's probably far bigger than you are looking for)

I looked into the PowerShot series. The camera I'm replacing is the G16, which itself replaced the S5. In the past I selected the high end PowerShots because they had a great balance of features and price.

This time, when I looked into the PowerShot line, it became quickly apparent they've diversified the line and significantly increased the price. I looked at the G1X M3, the G3, and the G5. The G3 and G5 do not use the APS-C sensor (shared by the G1X M3, the M50, the M100, and the entry-level DSLRs). They also all give up one of my favorite features on my G16, the lens that goes down to f/1.4. Having been out for awhile, the G3 and G5 use older image processors. The lens quality isn't high, and for what you get, I don't think they represent the value they did in the past.

Finally, my long-term plan includes additional lenses. Basically one flexible lens + body will be cheaper than the G1X M3 and similar in price to the G3, with the ability to add additional lenses expanding the cameras capabilities, and of course the ability to buy new bodies in the future and continue using the lenses already collected.
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Post by Vulture »

I had a great, super cheap PowerShot Canon over 10 years ago, it had a zoom lens that was not removable, and I took tons of pictures with it that looked amazing. I would still use that camera today if it held up to what I now know about photographs and more serious cameras like the one I use now. I had photos published that were taken with that old, cheap Canon. I can only imagine that the M50 will serve you well for a long time given its current specs and flexibility. I still have that old camera and only stopped using it because I noticed a weird blemish that must be dirt on the sensor, and I can't get to the sensor to clean it because the lens is not coming off.

In over 20 years using digital Canon cameras, I always had a joy of taking pictures and always being excited about how images were captured by the various Canons. There is something to be said for sticking with a brand that delivers for you, despite the fact that Nikon is probably more popular with people doing hardcore 35mm equivalent photography and other brands like Sony and Fuji are encroaching to fill out the top 4 slots.
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Post by macaddict4life »

Vulture wrote: I had a great, super cheap PowerShot Canon over 10 years ago, it had a zoom lens that was not removable, and I took tons of pictures with it that looked amazing. I would still use that camera today if it held up to what I now know about photographs and more serious cameras like the one I use now. I had photos published that were taken with that old, cheap Canon. I can only imagine that the M50 will serve you well for a long time given its current specs and flexibility. I still have that old camera and only stopped using it because I noticed a weird blemish that must be dirt on the sensor, and I can't get to the sensor to clean it because the lens is not coming off.

In over 20 years using digital Canon cameras, I always had a joy of taking pictures and always being excited about how images were captured by the various Canons. There is something to be said for sticking with a brand that delivers for you, despite the fact that Nikon is probably more popular with people doing hardcore 35mm equivalent photography and other brands like Sony and Fuji are encroaching to fill out the top 4 slots.

That's a big part of it. I moved from a Digital Elph to the S5 IS to the G16. And a the good friend who has been advising me is also Canon loyal.
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Post by Donkey Butter »

have you given any thoughts to the new R or RP?

the new RF glass is supposed to be amazing (with some really cool stuff coming out over the next little while) and with an adapter you can use all of the EF glass as well. (yes you can put an adapter on the M5 but I thought that only got you EF-S compatibility)
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Post by Vulture »

I've heard of people moving from the 5D4 to the EOS R after some convincing for specific purposes, like videography, and it sounds exciting that adapters can put R lenses on your EF mount and vice versa. I'm looking forward to the next 2 or three iterations of the EOS R while I decide when and if I decide to go mirrorless. I'm still having tons of fun slapping that mirror back and forth.
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Post by Ribtor »

Mirrorless permits lens mount adapters that allow lenses from different manufacturers.
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Post by macaddict4life »

Donkey Butter wrote: have you given any thoughts to the new R or RP?

the new RF glass is supposed to be amazing (with some really cool stuff coming out over the next little while) and with an adapter you can use all of the EF glass as well. (yes you can put an adapter on the M5 but I thought that only got you EF-S compatibility)

Interesting suggestion. I'm not sure I would get enough additional utility out of full-frame, and not only does that increase the body price dramatically, it also makes the lenses a lot more expensive. Waiting and going higher end is an option, but I'm just not so sure I could ever justify the price.

This does, however, bring up one of my only major concerns about the M series. If I go with EF-M lenses, rather than EF-S lenses with the adaptor, I won't be able to bring them with me if I ever change body types.
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Post by Kirk »

I've got a Nikon D3100 which is DX format, i.e. consumer grade. I've been eyeing the FX format cameras like the D750. The greater functionality and availability of much longer lenses are tempting.
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Post by Vulture »

Those Nikons, the 750, 800, 850, those are good choices.
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Post by macnuke »

i still use an F3 and an FM2 usually with a nikon 85mm f/1.4 and nikon 35-135 f/2.8
these are old school manual with real film

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Post by Ribtor »

macnuke wrote: i still use an F3 and an FM2 usually with a nikon 85mm f/1.4 and nikon 35-135 f/2.8
these are old school manual with real film


Yay!

Film is up more than 50% over the same period last year in my lab.. A year before that it was up about 25%.
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Post by user »

I still have film gear (F4, FM2, 8008, 10 S, 645) and my darkroom gear. Even have a 4x5.

I'm considering going black and white but I may have to mail order the film.
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Post by Donkey Butter »

Just popped into a local camera store today to replace my aging 17-40 with a 16-35 and while I was there I played around with the new EOS R. If I hadn't' just bought my 5D4 back in August, I would have bought that thing right then and there.

MA4L, do you have a camera store near you that will let you play around with the M50 before you buy? Nothing beats a hands on test to see if the camera would work for you.
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Post by macnuke »

Ribtor wrote:
macnuke wrote: i still use an F3 and an FM2 usually with a nikon 85mm f/1.4 and nikon 35-135 f/2.8
these are old school manual with real film


Yay!

Film is up more than 50% over the same period last year in my lab.. A year before that it was up about 25%.

sadly.... you won't get rich off my purchases..
but I do love knowing I either have the shot or not...

unlike being able to fire off a bazillion frames and pick out a good one before you leave the zone.

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Post by DukeofNuke »

I miss the control.
Turn the knob, twist the ring, get the little green light in the viewfinder and push the button; without having to go through a hundred menus.

I saw a camera not long ago that actually had a "FOOD" setting ...
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Post by macaddict4life »

Donkey Butter wrote: Just popped into a local camera store today to replace my aging 17-40 with a 16-35 and while I was there I played around with the new EOS R. If I hadn't' just bought my 5D4 back in August, I would have bought that thing right then and there.

MA4L, do you have a camera store near you that will let you play around with the M50 before you buy? Nothing beats a hands on test to see if the camera would work for you.

The best price I've found is at a local camera store in central Taiwan. I'll be up that way on the 30th, and am planning to go check it out then. I'm hoping they have a demo unit.
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Post by DukeofNuke »

intellectual/hipster/nihilist

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Post by Kirk »

Well alrighty then, Duke. You're making me reconsider my choice.
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Post by Donkey Butter »

That article is not accurate. The 5D4 and the R both shoot 24fps video in both 4K and 1080.

Also that whole 2 cards thing is lame. A lot of the Red cameras ( cameras that are supposed to be top in their field only have one card slot)

There’s no mention of the colour accuracy of the new EOS R which is near identical to the c200 ( a camera that is 3 to 4 times the cost of the R) or any mention of how the Canon AF is 1,000,000 miles ahead of the competition.

No the Canon cameras are not perfect but you could write an article highlighting the flaws of every single camera out there including the Sony’s Pentax Fuji... it’s not just Canon and Nikon that don’t make perfect cameras. That being said all those guys make great cameras. You just have to put one in you have and see which one is going to work for you and which drawbacks you can live with, or which things you just gotta have.

This article reads like someone that bought a Sony or Pentax or Fuji and are trying to justify why they didn’t buy the Canon or Nikon.
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Post by Ribtor »

macnuke wrote:
Ribtor wrote:
macnuke wrote: i still use an F3 and an FM2 usually with a nikon 85mm f/1.4 and nikon 35-135 f/2.8
these are old school manual with real film


Yay!

Film is up more than 50% over the same period last year in my lab.. A year before that it was up about 25%.

sadly.... you won't get rich off my purchases..
but I do love knowing I either have the shot or not...

unlike being able to fire off a bazillion frames and pick out a good one before you leave the zone.


Film is for the enjoyment of the entire process and accepting the challenge and limits imposed by film and turning those to an advantage.

I also find that single-use cameras have taken off in a big way. People don't want to risk their phones but still want a record of their risky or party-like activities. Single-use is a big part of the film increase.

I don't use film for editorial jobs. There is no point. I chose Olympus because the camera and lens barrel are all magnesium alloy. Sensor size is irrelevant. No editor has ever questioned my choice because why would they? There's nothing magic about the 35mm frame.
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Post by Vulture »

Donkey Butter wrote: That article is not accurate. The 5D4 and the R both shoot 24fps video in both 4K and 1080.




Curious, I had to see what this article said. From I can tell, it says the EOS RP doesn't shoot 24p. I don't know if this is true or false. Also, the 5D4 and R shoot 4K in cropped sensor, not full frame, which for some is disappointing.
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Post by user »

Full-frame just means you can use your old film lenses at the same effective focal length.
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Post by Vulture »

user wrote: Full-frame just means you can use your old film lenses at the same effective focal length.

It means a little more than that. For example, I have a 14mm prime lens that I can shoot full frame on the 5D4. I can also shoot 14mm full frame video at 1080p, but since 4K is cropped, the 14mm lens effectively becomes a 24mm equivalent at 4K, which is a huge deal in two ways. Either you hate that you can't shoot 4K video at 14mm with your 14mm lens, or you love that you can shoot 4K at 24mm because you want a 24mm lens but don't have one.
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Post by Donkey Butter »

The RP (according to Canons wedsite) shoots 4K at 24fps. (Though not in HD)

If you want to shoot wide in 4K you can use an EF-S lens that is meant for a cropped sensor camera. I’ve done this using my sigma 8-16 that I used to use on my 7D2.

The cameras that don’t crop in 4K are either lower resolution or they dump pixels to effectively reduce the resolution. So yes you get to use more of the field of view but you get more antialiasing and moire effect happening.

The crop is annoying, I wish my 16 would stay a 16 but it doesn’t, it moves in to a 28 so what I do is take a few steps back to frame it the same as it was before I switched to 4K.
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Post by macaddict4life »

See now, the poor 4K implementation on the M50 is one of the main downsides in reviews.

I neither shoot video on my camera, nor really care to do so in 4K. So it's a downside I've ignored.
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Post by Vulture »

Yeah, just use an iPhone to shoot in 4K and take pictures with your real camera.
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Post by Vulture »

Donkey Butter wrote: The RP (according to Canons wedsite) shoots 4K at 24fps. (Though not in HD)


The cameras that don’t crop in 4K are either lower resolution or they dump pixels to effectively reduce the resolution. So yes you get to use more of the field of view but you get more antialiasing and moire effect happening.

The point that article was making is that movie cameras like the C100 or C200 are what you'll have to buy if you want 4K full frame, because you won't get it in a DSLR from Canon.
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Post by macaddict4life »

Vulture wrote: Yeah, just use an iPhone to shoot in 4K and take pictures with your real camera.

I don't really have any desire to shoot video with my phone either. What's the point of accumulating big video files I'm never going to watch?
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Post by Kirk »

I take cute sea otter short video clips with my iPhone through my spotting scope. I've got everything from otters breaking a clam open with a rock to lusty males trying to steal babies away from their mothers for sex.
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Post by Donkey Butter »

the iPhone crops in 4K :p
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Post by macnuke »

Ima leave 4K on a phone right there next to "probiotic" and "Antioxidant" cause we know how well those are.

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Post by Vulture »

Don't forget antibiotic and oxidant.
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Post by Ribtor »

I see particularly bad chromatic aberration when older lenses are used with digital cameras. Lenses for digital cameras may be corrected for this. When it means cropping out the edges, there's little point in using a full frame sensor with older lenses. If image quality is the goal then full frame sensor compatibility with old lenses may be at cross purposes.
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Post by Kirk »

I try to correct for that aberration. Darktable has several profiles already in its library, including my camera and lens combination.
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Post by Kirk »

Donkey Butter wrote: the iPhone crops in 4K :p

Oh indeed. Like it matters when my short videos show a circular image and obvious eyepiece outside that.
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