Pariah's Perpetual Linux Thread.

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Pariah Know Your Enemy
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Just a couple of years ago it was KDE and Gnome as the big players with a collection of lesser DEs trailing behind. Now Gnome and KDE are suffering losses. Gnome in particular is being abandoned by droves of users and Distro's after the ill-received release of Gnome3.
The Gnome foundation is continuing to human waste off users. Their most recent bit of self destruction was the announcement that the next version of Nautilus is going to be stripped of many features now found in the current release.
It's kinda funny watching both Gnome and Canonical seemingly deliberately marginalizing themselves by taking a very Apple-like "my way or the highway" position on development. Something you simply cannot get away with in the Linux world.
The Mint crew has announced that since Gnome is castrating Nautilus that they will be forking it off, just like Cinnamon is a fork of Gnome3.
Interesting times.
The way things are going, won't be long till Gnome and Unity are grouped down with the oddball DEs like lxde and Enlightenment and two DEs that were barely extant last year might be ruling the roost, Cinnamon and Xfce.

Last edited by Pariah on Thu Nov 29, 2012 12:38 am.

The wheels of progress, Par.
Pariah Know Your Enemy
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Nini wrote:
The wheels of progress, Par.

It is.
It is interesting to me to see how touch oriented Desktops are being rejected so solidly on the Linux side. Microsoft might look and learn from this example.
Indeed but then Linux folk generally are dyed in the wool desktop users and sometimes reluctant to change.
Pariah Know Your Enemy
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Nini wrote:
Indeed but then Linux folk generally are dyed in the wool desktop users and sometimes reluctant to change.

There is no generalized anti-tablet vibe going on in the Linux world. To the contrary, there is some excitement about the prospect of Linux Tablets. What is going on is the rejection of touch centric GUIs on devices that do not have touch capabilities, like desktops and laptops.
It's a rather emphatic endorsement of the way Apple is doing things. One DE for traditional computers and another for touch devices. That is the right way to do things.
The problems Gnome, Unity and Win8 have is that they defy the very obvious reality that mouse and KB driven devices require a different UI than touch enabled devices do.
Indeed, touch isn't the same sort of use paradigm. I don't think there's even that strong an anti-tablet sentiment, just they do at least know not to mix and match entirely different use paradigms like you say though you can blur the edges and share certain elements not dependant on one input method over the other.

But it's weird, I don't see Xfce rising up because it is just a barebones Gnome2 DE right?
blurt mundus vult decipi
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Debian dropped GNOME for Xfce. It's indicative of a trend. Most users don't need the bloat that comes with the widgets and eye candy of KDE or GNOME. If a user wants that, they can download it. I find Xfce to be perfectly functional. I still need GTK+, of course.
Pariah Know Your Enemy
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I think that both Gnome3 and Unity have the potential to be good tablet environments. Both look great.
It's just a shame that so many people seem to be caught up in a sort of tablet mania. That tablets are the next Big Thing seems obvious but that is irrelevant to the needs of desktop users. For the sake of this discussion I combine desktops and laptops together.
I think Canonical is really blowing it. They have really benefited from being perceived as the approachable distro for regular users. For several years the answer to a newbie looking at Linux was "Try Ubuntu first".
But just in the last two or three months that has begun to change and now, as often as not, I see n00bs steered towards Mint and Mint is definitely gaining mind-share with the pundits.
Mint has become the best switcher distro. If you present a Windows user with either Gnome3 or Unity they are going to be faced with an immediate learning hurdle to clear but with Mint/Cinnamon that same user is going to take one look, immediately understand how the basics work and they are off and running.
A few more months of this and Ubuntu is going to get kicked off the top of the home user mountain with Mint taking it's place.
user Stupid cockwomble
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Tablets are going to kill linx if they don't get aboard.
Pariah Know Your Enemy
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user wrote:
Tablets are going to kill linx if they don't get aboard.

LOL, no. Nothing can kill Linux.
It's going to be the way it always is, Linux is going to take awhile to arrange itself for tablets. Theres Android already and truly open projects will get on the task by and by.
Seriously, FOSS has only just recently really got the desktops nice and fancied up to a respectable condition for general use. It will take awhile for the tablet stuff to get up and running.
The thing is that Tablets are an important item on the Linux "to do" list but it's not anything like the make or break thing it is for Microsoft.
Metacell Chocolate Brahma
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Nothing will kill Linux while UNIX is still the "real" OS of academia.
user Stupid cockwomble
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Fact: people are migrating away from desktops.
Pariah Know Your Enemy
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user wrote:
Fact: people are migrating away from desktops.

Laptop and Desktop sales continue to climb. The market is growing into new areas. Tablets have not yet caused a decline in conventional PC sales.
ukimalefu Rebel? resistance? why not both?
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Pariah Know Your Enemy
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user wrote:
Fact: people are migrating away from desktops.

I often wonder what people think that means anyways.
Are you proposing that only the area of fastest growth should be developed for? Are you saying that the current installed base of over half a billion PCs should simply be ignored now that a new shiny has come along? Are you saying that PC sales in the over 100 million per annum range is too small to bother developing for?
Pariah is correct on both points. Even now desktop sales continue to grow, albeit at a slower rate, this despite the theory laptops and now tablets going to eventually "kill" them. Everyone ignores the fact that as a older semi-desposable item, growth of desktops will eventually slow and level out anyway. The fact that laptops are approaching capability parity with desktops may affect the speed of the slowdown and the ultimate height of the peak but the fact is there are some tasks a portable device, even one that has every capability of the best desktops system and more, are ill suited for (like where physical security and uptime are primary concerns). Tablets and other newer technologies do and will do the same with laptops and tablets.
Something something "proper" computing.

Punchcards.
Pariah Know Your Enemy
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Nini wrote:
Something something "proper" computing.

Punchcards.

non sequitur
Pariah Know Your Enemy
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ScifiterX wrote:
Pariah is correct on both points. Even now desktop sales continue to grow, albeit at a slower rate, this despite the theory laptops and now tablets going to eventually "kill" them. Everyone ignores the fact that as a older semi-desposable item, growth of desktops will eventually slow and level out anyway. The fact that laptops are approaching capability parity with desktops may affect the speed of the slowdown and the ultimate height of the peak but the fact is there are some tasks a portable device, even one that has every capability of the best desktops system and more, are ill suited for (like where physical security and uptime are primary concerns). Tablets and other newer technologies do and will do the same with laptops and tablets.

Then there is the fact that if you want to cheapest computer you can get and still get things done you're going to end up with a tower. Towers are a blunt instrument. They don't need anything like the kind of attention to design required for mobile devices. You just grab a case, dump a bunch of parts inside and, boom, you got a computer. You can't get that cheap in a mobile device.
Lately I have seen two people who were laptop users replace their laptops with desktops. In both cases they had completed school and did all their mobile computing on their phones, so they didn't need the portability of the laptop anymore and went back to a desktop.
We are not eliminating any categories of devices, we are adding to them and changing the ratios around some. Laptops did not kill off desktops, Tablets are not going to kill either of them off.
Mr. T Dude extraordinaire
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Pariah wrote:
ScifiterX wrote:
Pariah is correct on both points. Even now desktop sales continue to grow, albeit at a slower rate, this despite the theory laptops and now tablets going to eventually "kill" them. Everyone ignores the fact that as a older semi-desposable item, growth of desktops will eventually slow and level out anyway. The fact that laptops are approaching capability parity with desktops may affect the speed of the slowdown and the ultimate height of the peak but the fact is there are some tasks a portable device, even one that has every capability of the best desktops system and more, are ill suited for (like where physical security and uptime are primary concerns). Tablets and other newer technologies do and will do the same with laptops and tablets.

Then there is the fact that if you want to cheapest computer you can get and still get things done you're going to end up with a tower. Towers are a blunt instrument. They don't need anything like the kind of attention to design required for mobile devices. You just grab a case, dump a bunch of parts inside and, boom, you got a computer. You can't get that cheap in a mobile device.
Lately I have seen two people who were laptop users replace their laptops with desktops. In both cases they had completed school and did all their mobile computing on their phones, so they didn't need the portability of the laptop anymore and went back to a desktop.
We are not eliminating any categories of devices, we are adding to them and changing the ratios around some. Laptops did not kill off desktops, Tablets are not going to kill either of them off.

Agreed
Mr. T Dude extraordinaire
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ScifiterX wrote:
The fact that laptops are approaching capability parity with desktops
I don't think that's true. My 4 year-old sub-$1k desktop is faster than any current laptop, regardless of cost. For expansion, upgradability, and perf/dollar (in addition to reliability and uptime) desktops can't be beat.

Also, though most of the enterprise market leases hardware, some organizations take advantage of custom builds and rolling over things like cases, monitors, power supplies, and UPS' --technologically, these things improve at a snails pace, and quality parts will be serve well into the future. Of these, monitors are perhaps the quickest to improve, yet a high-end 30" panel from 2004 would still be considered high-end today.
dv
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Yeah, if you can live in one spot for more than a semester, desktops are a pretty compelling thing.

The latest-gen mobile i7s do out-perform the i7-920, although your overclock skews it back the other way.
Pariah Know Your Enemy
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The problem with projects like Metro, Unity and Gnome is that they are being build with the assumption that you can make a DE that can be used equally well with both touch devices and KB/mouse devices. Out here in the wider world the general consensus is building that you, in fact, cannot do that.
complaining about a tablet oriented DE on a desktop is not at all the same thing as complaining about tablets. I think the iPad with iOS works great.
But I don't want iOS on my desk.

I think this will all be sorted out. Linux is a chameleon. I think what we will end up with is tablet oriented distros and desktop oriented distros. It will just take awhile for certain developers to get it through their heads that you need to design for one or the other to have any hope of producing a product anyone would want to use.
Seriously, the Big Two, MS and Apple have gone in completely different directions. Think about history and then make your best bet on which one is right.
Mint is already there. Mint is dedicated to providing the best desktop environment for desktop computers. That is the mission and because of that focus it is a really excellent DE.
A focused product is just going to be better. When I get a tablet one day I hope that I will have a bespoke touch DE to use on it and not some hybrid human waste. It works both ways.
user Stupid cockwomble
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Pariah wrote:
user wrote:
Fact: people are migrating away from desktops.

I often wonder what people think that means anyways.
Are you proposing that only the area of fastest growth should be developed for? Are you saying that the current installed base of over half a billion PCs should simply be ignored now that a new shiny has come along? Are you saying that PC sales in the over 100 million per annum range is too small to bother developing for?

Gee, you have extrapolated pretty far from a simple comment. I'm just saying that, what people have primarily been using desktop computers for will be replaced by tablets and other small devices.

I'm not including the nerds here.
Pariah Know Your Enemy
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user wrote:
Pariah wrote:
user wrote:
Fact: people are migrating away from desktops.

I often wonder what people think that means anyways.
Are you proposing that only the area of fastest growth should be developed for? Are you saying that the current installed base of over half a billion PCs should simply be ignored now that a new shiny has come along? Are you saying that PC sales in the over 100 million per annum range is too small to bother developing for?

Gee, you have extrapolated pretty far from a simple comment. I'm just saying that, what people have primarily been using desktop computers for will be replaced by tablets and other small devices.

I'm not including the nerds here.

People seem to be adding tablets to their lives, not replacing anything with them.
Mr. T wrote:
ScifiterX wrote:
The fact that laptops are approaching capability parity with desktops
I don't think that's true. My 4 year-old sub-$1k desktop is faster than any current laptop, regardless of cost. For expansion, upgradability, and perf/dollar (in addition to reliability and uptime) desktops can't be beat.

Also, though most of the enterprise market leases hardware, some organizations take advantage of custom builds and rolling over things like cases, monitors, power supplies, and UPS' --technologically, these things improve at a snails pace, and quality parts will be serve well into the future. Of these, monitors are perhaps the quickest to improve, yet a high-end 30" panel from 2004 would still be considered high-end today.

You'll note I said approaching but you are correct that it's definitely not there yet (particularly the performance capability) and certainly not at a capability cost or cost of performance level.
user Stupid cockwomble
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Pariah wrote:
user wrote:
Pariah wrote:
user wrote:
Fact: people are migrating away from desktops.

I often wonder what people think that means anyways.
Are you proposing that only the area of fastest growth should be developed for? Are you saying that the current installed base of over half a billion PCs should simply be ignored now that a new shiny has come along? Are you saying that PC sales in the over 100 million per annum range is too small to bother developing for?

Gee, you have extrapolated pretty far from a simple comment. I'm just saying that, what people have primarily been using desktop computers for will be replaced by tablets and other small devices.

I'm not including the nerds here.

People seem to be adding tablets to their lives, not replacing anything with them.
Eventually, they won't be "adding" them.
user Stupid cockwomble
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Pariah wrote:
People seem to be adding tablets to their lives, not replacing anything with them.
Eventually, they won't be "adding" them. I did specify "migrating".
Pariah Know Your Enemy
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user wrote:
Pariah wrote:
People seem to be adding tablets to their lives, not replacing anything with them.
Eventually, they won't be "adding" them. I did specify "migrating".

So, what is your point?
Are you saying that because tablets might supplant desktops in our lifetime that we should abandon desktop OS development now?
We are back to what I asked before, do you think that the only devices that should be developed for are the ones with the greatest current growth?
I personally don't think so, especially when it one that still shows growth.
Pariah Know Your Enemy
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ScifiterX wrote:
I personally don't think so, especially when it one that still shows growth.

We saw the same thing back when laptops were really beginning to take off. All of a sudden people who liked desktops were spoken to as if they were ridiculous Luddites fighting the future. Now, ten years latter we have the same thing, the newophiles again on the rampage, this time declaring both desktops and laptops dead and predicting that everyone will be switching completely over to the new shiny thing on the market.
Seriously, it's a tedious thing.
The desktop, truly the cockroach of the computing world.
Pariah Know Your Enemy
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Nini wrote:
The desktop, truly the cockroach of the computing world.

Pretty much.
maurvir Steamed meat popsicle
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Pariah wrote:
Nini wrote:
The desktop, truly the cockroach of the computing world.

Pretty much.


Then what is this?
ukimalefu Rebel? resistance? why not both?
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radarman wrote:
Pariah wrote:
Nini wrote:
The desktop, truly the cockroach of the computing world.

Pretty much.


Then what is this?


When I saw 'IBM', I though it was a joke, then I saw ' enterprise' and though meh :shrug:
dv
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radarman wrote:
Pariah wrote:
Nini wrote:
The desktop, truly the cockroach of the computing world.

Pretty much.


Then what is this?


A hagfish. (No, seriously.)
Pariah wrote:
Nini wrote:
The desktop, truly the cockroach of the computing world.

Pretty much.

It's funny cause it's true.
ukimalefu Rebel? resistance? why not both?
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ScifiterX wrote:
Pariah wrote:
Nini wrote:
The desktop, truly the cockroach of the computing world.

Pretty much.

It's funny cause it's true.

Nobody likes it but you can't get rid of it?

It will survive a nuclear war?

Make some people run away screaming?
user Stupid cockwomble
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Pariah wrote:
user wrote:
Pariah wrote:
People seem to be adding tablets to their lives, not replacing anything with them.
Eventually, they won't be "adding" them. I did specify "migrating".

So, what is your point?
Are you saying that because tablets might supplant desktops in our lifetime that we should abandon desktop OS development now?
We are back to what I asked before, do you think that the only devices that should be developed for are the ones with the greatest current growth?

Man, you are still doing it.

My statement was direct and precise and didn't imply any of those ideas that you are attributing to it. I didn't say or imply anything about a need to discontinue desktop development. At the most, I could have suggested that such development might slow down for the consumer market because of the prevalence of tablet and smartphone use. I didn't say that I thought it should.

At work, there used to be a laptop in the break room for internet use because they don't want employees using the work computers for personal browsing. It broke, and was never replaced. Everybody's using their cell phones instead.

Except for me, I don't have a smartphone.
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Pariah's Perpetual Linux Thread.

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