congressional report on boeing 737 max jets ain't great

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TOS
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they found that boeing knew of defects and covered them up

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The report said: “[The two crashes] were the horrific culmination of a series of faulty technical assumptions by Boeing’s engineers, a lack of transparency on the part of Boeing’s management, and grossly insufficient oversight by the [Federal Aviation Administration] — the pernicious result of regulatory capture on the part of the FAA with respect to its responsibilities to perform robust oversight of Boeing and to ensure the safety of the flying public.

“The facts laid out in this report document a disturbing pattern of technical miscalculations and troubling management misjudgments made by Boeing. It also illuminates numerous oversight lapses and accountability gaps by the FAA that played a significant role in the 737 Max crashes.”


ugly, man ... very ugly

interesting that they lay part of the blame on the feds
juice Inadvertently correct
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When you outsource oversight to the companies themselves, don't be surprised when human waste goes horribly wrong.
maurvir Steamed meat popsicle
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Modern corporate culture is incompatible with a safety-critical culture. It has taken a while, but even NASA has started to figure this out.

There are simply some industries where you have to think about something other than shareholder value, and aircraft manufacturing is one of them.
juice Inadvertently correct
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Yet another example of why privatizing space flight is an exceedingly bad idea.
maurvir Steamed meat popsicle
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juice posted:
Yet another example of why privatizing space flight is an exceedingly bad idea.


Practically speaking, the US government has never built anything (physically). Instead, the government specifies and funds the activity, while contractors do all the practical engineering, assembly, etc. What is novel about the new age of space exploration is that private companies are funding and specifying space hardware outside of the usual government contracting system for private use.

However, at least for SpaceX, there is still a need for government funding, and they are the "underdogs" compared to Boing and LockMart, so I suspect you will find that their hardware will generally exceed what their fat competitors are producing.

The real problem is that the Republicans have succeeded in starving government down to a "manageable" size. For example, the 737 MAX fiasco looks a whole like the regulatory systems completely failed in the face of a contractor willing to lie to them and bully them. Hence, it has little to do with privatization and a lot more with regulatory capture and insufficient regulatory oversight.
TOS
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juice posted:
Yet another example of why privatizing space flight is an exceedingly bad idea.


well that's a different case, since nasa has proven itself completely unable to safely operate a space program
juice Inadvertently correct
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maurvir posted:
juice posted:
Yet another example of why privatizing space flight is an exceedingly bad idea.


Practically speaking, the US government has never built anything (physically). Instead, the government specifies and funds the activity, while contractors do all the practical engineering, assembly, etc. What is novel about the new age of space exploration is that private companies are funding and specifying space hardware outside of the usual government contracting system for private use.

However, at least for SpaceX, there is still a need for government funding, and they are the "underdogs" compared to Boing and LockMart, so I suspect you will find that their hardware will generally exceed what their fat competitors are producing.

The real problem is that the Republicans have succeeded in starving* government down to a "manageable" size. For example, the 737 MAX fiasco looks a whole like the regulatory systems completely failed in the face of a contractor willing to lie to them and bully them. Hence, it has little to do with privatization and a lot more with regulatory capture and insufficient regulatory oversight.

*except the DoD
Agreed, delegating check and balance part of any build to the manufacturer is generally a bad idea, the more complex, the worse of an idea it becomes.
Metacell Chocolate Brahma
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TOS posted:
juice posted:
Yet another example of why privatizing space flight is an exceedingly bad idea.


well that's a different case, since nasa has proven itself completely unable to safely operate a space program

You're wrong. NASA has proven themselves 1% unable to safely explore the final frontier.
ukimalefu want, but shouldn't, may anyway
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Metacell posted:
TOS posted:
juice posted:
Yet another example of why privatizing space flight is an exceedingly bad idea.


well that's a different case, since nasa has proven itself completely unable to safely operate a space program

You're wrong. NASA has proven themselves 1% unable to safely explore the final frontier.


You want to go to space today? you talk to SpaceX. Even NASA does that.
Metacell Chocolate Brahma
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I'm just saying that 2 fatalities out of 200 manned space missions isn't really that bad of a record, as compared to say, the 15th century colonial navies. Has any country bested it yet?

I'd still trust NASA over Elon Musk.
ukimalefu want, but shouldn't, may anyway
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Metacell posted:
I'm just saying that 2 fatalities out of 200 manned space missions isn't really that bad of a record, as compared to say, the 15th century colonial navies. Has any country bested it yet?

I'd still trust NASA over Elon Musk.


If you're only gonna count fatalities

Quote:
As of 2020, there have been 15 astronaut and 4 cosmonaut fatalities during spaceflight. Astronauts have also died while training for space missions, such as the Apollo 1 launch pad fire which killed an entire crew of three. There have also been some non-astronaut fatalities during spaceflight-related activities.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_s ... _incidents

SpaceX has had only one manned mission. 100% success rate! OK, but seriously, it's not a fair comparison.

I did some googling and couldn't find a definitive answer on overall success rates, but it seems that NASA and SpaceX are very close, with edge advantage for NASA, but again, it's not a fair comparison because NASA has had a lot more launches.

But I must insist, if I, me, personally, wanted to go to space today, I'd go with SpaceX. My reasoning? I've seen lots of successful launches live, on this very screen i'm looking at right now.

Oh, one more thing, the last successful mission to the Moon was by China, with a lander, and before it was Japan, with an orbiter... unless I forget something.

I still want to see the first commercial mission to the Moon or Mars.
TOS
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Metacell posted:
TOS posted:
juice posted:
Yet another example of why privatizing space flight is an exceedingly bad idea.


well that's a different case, since nasa has proven itself completely unable to safely operate a space program

You're wrong. NASA has proven themselves 1% unable to safely explore the final frontier.


i agree it's fun to play with statistics, but if 1/3 of any class of flying vehicle experienced catastrophic loss due to mismanagement and design flaws, you might be willing to characterize it as a tad problematic

"man, that 747 is a heck of a plane"

"yeah too bad we've lost so many of them"
Metacell Chocolate Brahma
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Not if I were a true adventurer. I'd see it as promising.
maurvir Steamed meat popsicle
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Metacell posted:
I'm just saying that 2 fatalities out of 200 manned space missions isn't really that bad of a record, as compared to say, the 15th century colonial navies. Has any country bested it yet?

I'd still trust NASA over Elon Musk.


True, but both losses were completely avoidable had NASA not had their heads up their asses. There was more than ample warning for Challenger, complete with charts and slides, but it would have impacted schedule. Columbia was a bit different, but the issue with crap falling off the main fuel tank had been known for a while.
TOS
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Metacell posted:
Not if I were a true adventurer. I'd see it as promising.


i guess the realities of logistics, funding, technological development and a myriad other things can just get tossed out the window in favour of vague idealistic talking-points
Metacell Chocolate Brahma
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Well, they are by all the people who make things happen.
TOS
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i'm not sure what you mean
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congressional report on boeing 737 max jets ain't great