juice posted:

I wonder if a battery exchange would be a better business model. Nearly instant "refueling" and less wear on the batteries by using the fast chargers.

Create a standardized battery pack design and get all automotive manufacturers to adhere to the standard for all time.

stick fiddlers can't even standardize a stick fiddling gas cap.

dv posted:

juice posted:

I wonder if a battery exchange would be a better business model. Nearly instant "refueling" and less wear on the batteries by using the fast chargers.

Create a standardized battery pack design and get all automotive manufacturers to adhere to the standard for all time.

stick fiddlers can't even standardize a stick fiddling gas cap.

This sounds like the kind of government over reach I can support.

i don't think that would work real great ... battery packs are damn heavy and hard to maneuver

rather than compare them to a tank of gas, compare them to an internal combustion engine ... those only get swapped when human waste goes really wrong

They're heavy but they're not Thor's hammer. A bit of engineering and a bit of equipment and Bob's your uncle.

Some large distribution facilities use pallet jacks powered by batteries. These batteries are removable and can be swapped in five minutes. I've seen it done.

juice posted:

Some large distribution facilities use pallet jacks powered by batteries. These batteries are removable and can be swapped in five minutes. I've seen it done.

Theyre also sort of cubed shaped. You'd need to standardize the battery shape and keep charged replacements on hand.

Hence my use of the phrase “business model”.

juice posted:

Hence my use of the phrase “business model”.

I'm just saying that it'll be hard to scale. Forklift batteries are fairly standard but super bulky. if you're designing a car you would want to minimize wasted space, which either means a lot of smaller battery units or a few ones of different sizes. The former is a hassle because then you need to swap out all of the batteries, and the latter is a hassle because you would need to keep in stock all sizes. And either method now means that you have a capacity limit of how many batteries you can swap at any time, and you would end up turning away customers if you had a sudden spike and all of your batteries are dead and recharging. My main concern is that any business model would be cost prohibitive.

Betonhaus posted:

juice posted:

Hence my use of the phrase “business model”.

I'm just saying that it'll be hard to scale. Forklift batteries are fairly standard but super bulky. if you're designing a car you would want to minimize wasted space, which either means a lot of smaller battery units or a few ones of different sizes. The former is a hassle because then you need to swap out all of the batteries, and the latter is a hassle because you would need to keep in stock all sizes. And either method now means that you have a capacity limit of how many batteries you can swap at any time, and you would end up turning away customers if you had a sudden spike and all of your batteries are dead and recharging. My main concern is that any business model would be cost prohibitive.

DV and I have already addressed that, but thanks for following along.

juice posted:

dv posted:

juice posted:

I wonder if a battery exchange would be a better business model. Nearly instant "refueling" and less wear on the batteries by using the fast chargers.

Create a standardized battery pack design and get all automotive manufacturers to adhere to the standard for all time.

stick fiddlers can't even standardize a stick fiddling gas cap.

This sounds like the kind of government over reach I can support.

Betonhaus posted:

juice posted:

Hence my use of the phrase “business model”.

I'm just saying that it'll be hard to scale. Forklift batteries are fairly standard but super bulky. if you're designing a car you would want to minimize wasted space, which either means a lot of smaller battery units or a few ones of different sizes. The former is a hassle because then you need to swap out all of the batteries, and the latter is a hassle because you would need to keep in stock all sizes. And either method now means that you have a capacity limit of how many batteries you can swap at any time, and you would end up turning away customers if you had a sudden spike and all of your batteries are dead and recharging. My main concern is that any business model would be cost prohibitive.

So we have a small number of options, like say four to six variations on the theme.

small car, sedan, minivan, suv/light truck, performance car?

juice posted:

small car, sedan, minivan, suv/light truck, performance car?

i just don't see it

you're trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist

TOS posted:

juice posted:

small car, sedan, minivan, suv/light truck, performance car?

i just don't see it

you're trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist

The range issue with electric isn't a problem? If you say so.

juice posted:

TOS posted:

juice posted:

small car, sedan, minivan, suv/light truck, performance car?

i just don't see it

you're trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist

The range issue with electric isn't a problem? If you say so.

It's not, unless you don't have a place to trickle-charge them overnight. Fast charging is bad for the battery. You can do it on infrequent road trips, but it shouldn't be an everyday thing.

The ~30 minute wait time to fast charge a mostly-discharged battery pack is actually quite reasonable for a car with a ~300 mile range. You should be stopping to stretch every couple hours anyway - pee, walk the dog, stream some Netflix, you'll be back on the road before you know it. It's not the five minute stop that you may be used to with a gasoline powered car, but that's bad for your circulation anyway.

No
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckM51xoTC2U

juice posted:

TOS posted:

juice posted:

small car, sedan, minivan, suv/light truck, performance car?

i just don't see it

you're trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist

The range issue with electric isn't a problem? If you say so.

the next wave of electrics will routinely have a 500km range and reach 80% charge in half an hour

that's about the same range my fiat 500 gets on a tank of gas (around 50 mpg)

really the only difference between my current internal combustion car and the upcoming electrics is the time it takes to refuel/charge

eventually quick-charging will be fairly widespread, but the percentage of drivers who need greater range and faster charge times is so microscopically small that unfortunately they're fairly irrelevant

TOS posted:

eventually quick-charging will be fairly widespread, but the percentage of drivers who need greater range and faster charge times is so microscopically small that unfortunately they're fairly irrelevant

I wonder what percentage of the population takes a drive over...oh...say, 600 miles at least once a year?

Pariah posted:

TOS posted:

eventually quick-charging will be fairly widespread, but the percentage of drivers who need greater range and faster charge times is so microscopically small that unfortunately they're fairly irrelevant

I wonder what percentage of the population takes a drive over...oh...say, 600 miles at least once a year?

You know, if the range were about 600 miles, I could easily manage virtually every trip I need to make, making an EV a no-brainer. I'm certain the in-laws would let me recharge, though it might take overnight. Unfortunately, at the current ranges I would have to find a charging station - in Arkansas - just to get there.

A 600 mile range would be a real game changer.

Pariah posted:

TOS posted:

eventually quick-charging will be fairly widespread, but the percentage of drivers who need greater range and faster charge times is so microscopically small that unfortunately they're fairly irrelevant

I wonder what percentage of the population takes a drive over...oh...say, 600 miles at least once a year?

Old study, but even though a lot of people do "road trips" the average distance driven is only 314 miles.

https://nhts.ornl.gov/briefs/Vacation%20Travel.pdf

And by the looks of things, people who can afford to fly do so.

Thursday I'm heading out on a 660 mile trip. That's just to get there.

maurvir posted:

Pariah posted:

TOS posted:

eventually quick-charging will be fairly widespread, but the percentage of drivers who need greater range and faster charge times is so microscopically small that unfortunately they're fairly irrelevant

I wonder what percentage of the population takes a drive over...oh...say, 600 miles at least once a year?

You know, if the range were about 600 miles, I could easily manage virtually every trip I need to make, making an EV a no-brainer. I'm certain the in-laws would let me recharge, though it might take overnight. Unfortunately, at the current ranges I would have to find a charging station - in Arkansas - just to get there.

A 600 mile range would be a real game changer.

well, that's asking a hell of a lot ... we wouldn't ask that of ice cars

eventually they may have options for boosting the range, but it's more likely they'll get around it by relying on fast charging

Something that occured to me:
When all cars are electric we will see something never seen before, super cars and hyper cars that are also reliable cars.
Imagine, if you will, a world where Ferrari's were as reliable as a Toyota.

That's like imagining world peace

Kirk posted:

That's like imagining world peace

I know, right?

Pariah posted:

Something that occured to me:
When all cars are electric we will see something never seen before, super cars and hyper cars that are also reliable cars.
Imagine, if you will, a world where Ferrari's were as reliable as a Toyota.

I'm sure they will find something to fiddlesticks up.

Plus all cars need doors and suspension.

Betonhaus posted:

Pariah posted:

Something that occured to me:
When all cars are electric we will see something never seen before, super cars and hyper cars that are also reliable cars.
Imagine, if you will, a world where Ferrari's were as reliable as a Toyota.

I'm sure they will find something to fiddlesticks up.

Plus all cars need doors and suspension.

Doors and suspensions were never the boutique automakers' problem, though. It was engine reliability. (And cost of repair when the inevitable happened.)

the problem isn't reliability, it's audio

a huge reason why people get those cars (and muscle cars too) is the sound they make

how the hell will they goose the lizard brain when their cars make no noise?

part of me thinks the supercars will be the last to go electric for this reason

Pariah posted:

Something that occured to me:
When all cars are electric we will see something never seen before, super cars and hyper cars that are also reliable cars.
Imagine, if you will, a world where Ferrari's were as reliable as a Toyota.

I don't think so. European cars still aren't known for reliability with their electrics.

TOS posted:

the problem isn't reliability, it's audio

a huge reason why people get those cars (and muscle cars too) is the sound they make

how the hell will they goose the lizard brain when their cars make no noise?

part of me thinks the supercars will be the last to go electric for this reason

Why not just mount speakers to the hood and have your own custom engine sound? Downloadable sounds for 99¢!

Metacell posted:

TOS posted:

the problem isn't reliability, it's audio

a huge reason why people get those cars (and muscle cars too) is the sound they make

how the hell will they goose the lizard brain when their cars make no noise?

part of me thinks the supercars will be the last to go electric for this reason

Why not just mount speakers to the hood and have your own custom engine sound? Downloadable sounds for 99¢!

Some gas-burners even do that.

j_tso posted:

Pariah posted:

Something that occured to me:
When all cars are electric we will see something never seen before, super cars and hyper cars that are also reliable cars.
Imagine, if you will, a world where Ferrari's were as reliable as a Toyota.

I don't think so. European cars still aren't known for reliability with their electrics.

We are still in early days for mass produced electric cars. Heck, it wasn't till the 50's that ICE cars became anything near what could be called reliable.
Electric will advance much faster.

First electric Aston-Martin

http://www.motoringfile.com/2019/04/15/ ... tric-cars/

Quote:

“It is important for us as a brand to understand how consumers want to use their electric vehicles, and what they know and don’t know about them as we move closer to the launch of the MINI Cooper S E electric vehicle in the U.S.,” said Andrew Cutler, Head of Corporate Communications, MINI USA. “The more intelligence we gather, the more we can educate consumers about the many benefits of electric mobility and what MINI has to offer in the new MINI Cooper S E electric vehicle coming in early 2020.”

oooo....I would love an electric Cooper

so is an electric truck still eligible for truck nuts hanging off the trailer hitch?

macnuke posted:

so is an electric truck still eligible for truck nuts hanging off the trailer hitch?

Yes, but they have to be made with biodegradable plastic.

dv posted:

macnuke posted:

so is an electric truck still eligible for truck nuts hanging off the trailer hitch?

Yes, but they have to be made with biodegradable plastic.

Aww, I prefer the flint ones that spark when they scrape over a bump.

Betonhaus posted:

dv posted:

macnuke posted:

so is an electric truck still eligible for truck nuts hanging off the trailer hitch?

Yes, but they have to be made with biodegradable plastic.

Aww, I prefer the flint ones that spark when they scrape over a bump.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rAjily7rME

dv posted:

Metacell posted:

TOS posted:

the problem isn't reliability, it's audio

a huge reason why people get those cars (and muscle cars too) is the sound they make

how the hell will they goose the lizard brain when their cars make no noise?

part of me thinks the supercars will be the last to go electric for this reason

Why not just mount speakers to the hood and have your own custom engine sound? Downloadable sounds for 99¢!

Some gas-burners even do that.

Yup, sorta. The Club trim level of the Mazda MX-5 has a sound tube that runs from the engine bay into the cockpit. A lot of people remove them or plug them up. It does not bother me, so I just roll with it.