Electric cars are the future

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dv
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Post by dv »

juice wrote: I wonder if a battery exchange would be a better business model. Nearly instant "refueling" and less wear on the batteries by using the fast chargers.


Create a standardized battery pack design and get all automotive manufacturers to adhere to the standard for all time.

stick fiddlers can't even standardize a stick fiddling gas cap.
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Post by juice »

dv wrote:
juice wrote: I wonder if a battery exchange would be a better business model. Nearly instant "refueling" and less wear on the batteries by using the fast chargers.


Create a standardized battery pack design and get all automotive manufacturers to adhere to the standard for all time.

stick fiddlers can't even standardize a stick fiddling gas cap.

This sounds like the kind of government over reach I can support.
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Post by TOS »

i don't think that would work real great ... battery packs are damn heavy and hard to maneuver

rather than compare them to a tank of gas, compare them to an internal combustion engine ... those only get swapped when human waste goes really wrong
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Post by juice »

They're heavy but they're not Thor's hammer. A bit of engineering and a bit of equipment and Bob's your uncle.
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Post by juice »

Some large distribution facilities use pallet jacks powered by batteries. These batteries are removable and can be swapped in five minutes. I've seen it done.
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Post by Betonhaus »

juice wrote: Some large distribution facilities use pallet jacks powered by batteries. These batteries are removable and can be swapped in five minutes. I've seen it done.

Theyre also sort of cubed shaped. You'd need to standardize the battery shape and keep charged replacements on hand.
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Post by juice »

Hence my use of the phrase “business model”.
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Post by Betonhaus »

juice wrote: Hence my use of the phrase “business model”.

I'm just saying that it'll be hard to scale. Forklift batteries are fairly standard but super bulky. if you're designing a car you would want to minimize wasted space, which either means a lot of smaller battery units or a few ones of different sizes. The former is a hassle because then you need to swap out all of the batteries, and the latter is a hassle because you would need to keep in stock all sizes. And either method now means that you have a capacity limit of how many batteries you can swap at any time, and you would end up turning away customers if you had a sudden spike and all of your batteries are dead and recharging. My main concern is that any business model would be cost prohibitive.
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Post by juice »

Betonhaus wrote:
juice wrote: Hence my use of the phrase “business model”.

I'm just saying that it'll be hard to scale. Forklift batteries are fairly standard but super bulky. if you're designing a car you would want to minimize wasted space, which either means a lot of smaller battery units or a few ones of different sizes. The former is a hassle because then you need to swap out all of the batteries, and the latter is a hassle because you would need to keep in stock all sizes. And either method now means that you have a capacity limit of how many batteries you can swap at any time, and you would end up turning away customers if you had a sudden spike and all of your batteries are dead and recharging. My main concern is that any business model would be cost prohibitive.


DV and I have already addressed that, but thanks for following along.

juice wrote:
dv wrote:
juice wrote: I wonder if a battery exchange would be a better business model. Nearly instant "refueling" and less wear on the batteries by using the fast chargers.


Create a standardized battery pack design and get all automotive manufacturers to adhere to the standard for all time.

stick fiddlers can't even standardize a stick fiddling gas cap.

This sounds like the kind of government over reach I can support.
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Post by Kirk »

Betonhaus wrote:
juice wrote: Hence my use of the phrase “business model”.

I'm just saying that it'll be hard to scale. Forklift batteries are fairly standard but super bulky. if you're designing a car you would want to minimize wasted space, which either means a lot of smaller battery units or a few ones of different sizes. The former is a hassle because then you need to swap out all of the batteries, and the latter is a hassle because you would need to keep in stock all sizes. And either method now means that you have a capacity limit of how many batteries you can swap at any time, and you would end up turning away customers if you had a sudden spike and all of your batteries are dead and recharging. My main concern is that any business model would be cost prohibitive.

So we have a small number of options, like say four to six variations on the theme.
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Post by juice »

small car, sedan, minivan, suv/light truck, performance car?
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Post by TOS »

juice wrote: small car, sedan, minivan, suv/light truck, performance car?


i just don't see it

you're trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist
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Post by juice »

TOS wrote:
juice wrote: small car, sedan, minivan, suv/light truck, performance car?


i just don't see it

you're trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist

The range issue with electric isn't a problem? If you say so.
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Post by dv »

juice wrote:
TOS wrote:
juice wrote: small car, sedan, minivan, suv/light truck, performance car?


i just don't see it

you're trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist

The range issue with electric isn't a problem? If you say so.


It's not, unless you don't have a place to trickle-charge them overnight. Fast charging is bad for the battery. You can do it on infrequent road trips, but it shouldn't be an everyday thing.

The ~30 minute wait time to fast charge a mostly-discharged battery pack is actually quite reasonable for a car with a ~300 mile range. You should be stopping to stretch every couple hours anyway - pee, walk the dog, stream some Netflix, you'll be back on the road before you know it. It's not the five minute stop that you may be used to with a gasoline powered car, but that's bad for your circulation anyway.
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Post by Kirk »

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Post by TOS »

juice wrote:
TOS wrote:
juice wrote: small car, sedan, minivan, suv/light truck, performance car?


i just don't see it

you're trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist

The range issue with electric isn't a problem? If you say so.


the next wave of electrics will routinely have a 500km range and reach 80% charge in half an hour

that's about the same range my fiat 500 gets on a tank of gas (around 50 mpg)

really the only difference between my current internal combustion car and the upcoming electrics is the time it takes to refuel/charge

eventually quick-charging will be fairly widespread, but the percentage of drivers who need greater range and faster charge times is so microscopically small that unfortunately they're fairly irrelevant
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Post by Pariah »

TOS wrote:
eventually quick-charging will be fairly widespread, but the percentage of drivers who need greater range and faster charge times is so microscopically small that unfortunately they're fairly irrelevant

I wonder what percentage of the population takes a drive over...oh...say, 600 miles at least once a year?
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Post by maurvir »

Pariah wrote:
TOS wrote:
eventually quick-charging will be fairly widespread, but the percentage of drivers who need greater range and faster charge times is so microscopically small that unfortunately they're fairly irrelevant

I wonder what percentage of the population takes a drive over...oh...say, 600 miles at least once a year?


You know, if the range were about 600 miles, I could easily manage virtually every trip I need to make, making an EV a no-brainer. I'm certain the in-laws would let me recharge, though it might take overnight. Unfortunately, at the current ranges I would have to find a charging station - in Arkansas - just to get there.

A 600 mile range would be a real game changer.
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Post by dv »

Pariah wrote:
TOS wrote:
eventually quick-charging will be fairly widespread, but the percentage of drivers who need greater range and faster charge times is so microscopically small that unfortunately they're fairly irrelevant

I wonder what percentage of the population takes a drive over...oh...say, 600 miles at least once a year?


Old study, but even though a lot of people do "road trips" the average distance driven is only 314 miles.

https://nhts.ornl.gov/briefs/Vacation%20Travel.pdf

And by the looks of things, people who can afford to fly do so.
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Post by Kirk »

Thursday I'm heading out on a 660 mile trip. That's just to get there.
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Post by TOS »

maurvir wrote:
Pariah wrote:
TOS wrote:
eventually quick-charging will be fairly widespread, but the percentage of drivers who need greater range and faster charge times is so microscopically small that unfortunately they're fairly irrelevant

I wonder what percentage of the population takes a drive over...oh...say, 600 miles at least once a year?


You know, if the range were about 600 miles, I could easily manage virtually every trip I need to make, making an EV a no-brainer. I'm certain the in-laws would let me recharge, though it might take overnight. Unfortunately, at the current ranges I would have to find a charging station - in Arkansas - just to get there.

A 600 mile range would be a real game changer.


well, that's asking a hell of a lot ... we wouldn't ask that of ice cars

eventually they may have options for boosting the range, but it's more likely they'll get around it by relying on fast charging
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Post by Pariah »

Something that occured to me:
When all cars are electric we will see something never seen before, super cars and hyper cars that are also reliable cars.
Imagine, if you will, a world where Ferrari's were as reliable as a Toyota.
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Post by Kirk »

That's like imagining world peace
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Post by Pariah »

Kirk wrote: That's like imagining world peace

I know, right? :)
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Post by Betonhaus »

Pariah wrote: Something that occured to me:
When all cars are electric we will see something never seen before, super cars and hyper cars that are also reliable cars.
Imagine, if you will, a world where Ferrari's were as reliable as a Toyota.

I'm sure they will find something to fiddlesticks up.

Plus all cars need doors and suspension.
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Post by dv »

Betonhaus wrote:
Pariah wrote: Something that occured to me:
When all cars are electric we will see something never seen before, super cars and hyper cars that are also reliable cars.
Imagine, if you will, a world where Ferrari's were as reliable as a Toyota.

I'm sure they will find something to fiddlesticks up.

Plus all cars need doors and suspension.

Doors and suspensions were never the boutique automakers' problem, though. It was engine reliability. (And cost of repair when the inevitable happened.)
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Post by TOS »

the problem isn't reliability, it's audio

a huge reason why people get those cars (and muscle cars too) is the sound they make

how the hell will they goose the lizard brain when their cars make no noise?

part of me thinks the supercars will be the last to go electric for this reason
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Post by j_tso »

Pariah wrote: Something that occured to me:
When all cars are electric we will see something never seen before, super cars and hyper cars that are also reliable cars.
Imagine, if you will, a world where Ferrari's were as reliable as a Toyota.


I don't think so. European cars still aren't known for reliability with their electrics.
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Post by Metacell »

TOS wrote: the problem isn't reliability, it's audio

a huge reason why people get those cars (and muscle cars too) is the sound they make

how the hell will they goose the lizard brain when their cars make no noise?

part of me thinks the supercars will be the last to go electric for this reason

Why not just mount speakers to the hood and have your own custom engine sound? Downloadable sounds for 99¢!
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Post by dv »

Metacell wrote:
TOS wrote: the problem isn't reliability, it's audio

a huge reason why people get those cars (and muscle cars too) is the sound they make

how the hell will they goose the lizard brain when their cars make no noise?

part of me thinks the supercars will be the last to go electric for this reason

Why not just mount speakers to the hood and have your own custom engine sound? Downloadable sounds for 99¢!

Some gas-burners even do that.
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Post by Pariah »

j_tso wrote:
Pariah wrote: Something that occured to me:
When all cars are electric we will see something never seen before, super cars and hyper cars that are also reliable cars.
Imagine, if you will, a world where Ferrari's were as reliable as a Toyota.


I don't think so. European cars still aren't known for reliability with their electrics.

We are still in early days for mass produced electric cars. Heck, it wasn't till the 50's that ICE cars became anything near what could be called reliable.
Electric will advance much faster.
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Post by iDaemon »

http://www.motoringfile.com/2019/04/15/ ... tric-cars/

“It is important for us as a brand to understand how consumers want to use their electric vehicles, and what they know and don’t know about them as we move closer to the launch of the MINI Cooper S E electric vehicle in the U.S.,” said Andrew Cutler, Head of Corporate Communications, MINI USA. “The more intelligence we gather, the more we can educate consumers about the many benefits of electric mobility and what MINI has to offer in the new MINI Cooper S E electric vehicle coming in early 2020.”
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Post by user »

oooo....I would love an electric Cooper
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Post by macnuke »

so is an electric truck still eligible for truck nuts hanging off the trailer hitch?

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Post by dv »

macnuke wrote: so is an electric truck still eligible for truck nuts hanging off the trailer hitch?


Yes, but they have to be made with biodegradable plastic.
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Post by Betonhaus »

dv wrote:
macnuke wrote: so is an electric truck still eligible for truck nuts hanging off the trailer hitch?


Yes, but they have to be made with biodegradable plastic.

Aww, I prefer the flint ones that spark when they scrape over a bump.
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Post by dv »

Betonhaus wrote:
dv wrote:
macnuke wrote: so is an electric truck still eligible for truck nuts hanging off the trailer hitch?


Yes, but they have to be made with biodegradable plastic.

Aww, I prefer the flint ones that spark when they scrape over a bump.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rAjily7rME
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Post by avkills »

dv wrote:
Metacell wrote:
TOS wrote: the problem isn't reliability, it's audio

a huge reason why people get those cars (and muscle cars too) is the sound they make

how the hell will they goose the lizard brain when their cars make no noise?

part of me thinks the supercars will be the last to go electric for this reason

Why not just mount speakers to the hood and have your own custom engine sound? Downloadable sounds for 99¢!

Some gas-burners even do that.


Yup, sorta. The Club trim level of the Mazda MX-5 has a sound tube that runs from the engine bay into the cockpit. A lot of people remove them or plug them up. It does not bother me, so I just roll with it.
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