Electric cars are the future

How's life?
User avatar
TOS
Posts: 40374
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2013 5:48 pm

Post by TOS »

man ... a ds without the maintenance? automotive perfection

"TOS ain’t havin no horserace round here. “Policies” is the coin of the realm." -- iDaemon
User avatar
TOS
Posts: 40374
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2013 5:48 pm

Post by TOS »

report: musk blew a potential buyout of tesla by apple:

Image

"TOS ain’t havin no horserace round here. “Policies” is the coin of the realm." -- iDaemon
User avatar
TOS
Posts: 40374
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2013 5:48 pm

Post by TOS »

what about electric boats?

A team of former SpaceX rocket engineers have joined the race to build the first commercial electric speedboat.

The Arc Boat company announced it had raised $4.25m (£3m) in seed funding to start work on a 24ft 475-horsepower craft that will cost about $300,000.

The LA-based company, which is backed by venture capital firm Andreessen Horowitz (an early backer of Facebook and Airbnb), said the first model of the Arc One boat would be available for sale by the end of the year.

"TOS ain’t havin no horserace round here. “Policies” is the coin of the realm." -- iDaemon
User avatar
ukimalefu
Posts: 46649
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 3:52 pm
Title: Screen toucher
Contact:

Post by ukimalefu »

Nissan cuts starting price of its electric Leaf to under $30,000

Now starting at just $27,400

The catch is that it's ugly

Image

Despite the drop in price, the specs of the new Leaf cars are broadly unchanged from previous years. You should still get an estimated 149 miles of range from the 40kWh model, or between 215 and 226 miles from the 62kWh version. However, all 2022 models now include a CHAdeMO quick-charging port, plus a portable 240-volt charging cable, which should provide more flexibility when topping up the car’s battery.

The Leaf is currently the only electric car Nissan sells in the US, but later this year it will release the Ariya, a new electric crossover SUV with up to 300 miles of range. Announced last year, the Ariya is due to go on sale in Japan in the middle of the year, with the US and Canada to follow and pricing starting at around $40,000.

User avatar
maurvir
Posts: 26133
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2010 10:13 pm
Title: Steamed meat popsicle

Post by maurvir »

I will never understand why car companies feel the need to make their EV's fugly. Why not just make a regular looking car, but with an electric drive train? It's one of the few things that really sets Tesla apart - their cars look nice and fit right in with the rest of traffic.

User avatar
Metacell
Posts: 11552
Joined: Thu Nov 18, 2010 1:58 am
Title: Chocolate Brahma
Location: Lidsville
Contact:

Post by Metacell »

It's not that ugly...it's just homely. Everyone who sees you driving it will know you're poor and not cool.

Remember, people, to forgive is divine. In other words, it ain't human.
DEyncourt
Posts: 18546
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 2:38 am

Post by DEyncourt »

I believe that the various car makers are attempting to replicate Toyota's success with that company's Prius design.

I have seen cars marked with HYBRID badges but with Honda or Hyundai logos which at first I had mistook as Priuses.

User avatar
j_tso
Posts: 1302
Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2008 2:46 am
Location: Austin, TX

Post by j_tso »

What if they looked like Mazda's RX-Vision concept?
Image

Recently released patent drawings suggest they're working on a similar body style with electric drive.

User avatar
TOS
Posts: 40374
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2013 5:48 pm

Post by TOS »

maurvir wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 9:55 am

I will never understand why car companies feel the need to make their EV's fugly. Why not just make a regular looking car, but with an electric drive train? It's one of the few things that really sets Tesla apart - their cars look nice and fit right in with the rest of traffic.

isn't it basically an elecric versa?

Image

"TOS ain’t havin no horserace round here. “Policies” is the coin of the realm." -- iDaemon
User avatar
TOS
Posts: 40374
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2013 5:48 pm

Post by TOS »

"TOS ain’t havin no horserace round here. “Policies” is the coin of the realm." -- iDaemon
User avatar
DukeofNuke
Posts: 33620
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2008 1:33 pm
Title: FREE RADICAL
Location: Scintillating!

Post by DukeofNuke »

TOS wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 9:42 am

a look at the polestar precept

It'll never sell. No cup holders.

intellectual/hipster/nihilist

"Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but not their own facts."
-Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan
User avatar
Pariah
Posts: 23168
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 5:45 pm
Title: Know Your Enemy

Post by Pariah »

TOS wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 1:59 pm

whoah ... gm might replace the camero with a performance ev

is this going to spark an era of electric muscle cars?

This is not so much about GM having faith in EVs as much as it is a desperation move to find a way to sell more Cameros. Cameros have been sad market failures compared to Mustangs and what ever those things Chrysler makes are called.

Not even duct tape will fix stupid, but it can muffle the sound.
User avatar
obvs
Posts: 28294
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2008 8:44 pm
Title: Socialist isn't an epithet;it's a badge.

Post by obvs »

DEyncourt
Posts: 18546
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 2:38 am

Post by DEyncourt »

The guys and gal of the Skeptic's Guide to the Universe pointed out over this past weekend (episode #839 dated 08/07/21) that our MAIN (95%) source for hydrogen--because this is cheapest way to produce large amounts--is by stripping off hydrogen from natural gas AND which results in releases of CO2 (so as one of the SGU rogues put it: "What's the point to switching to hydrogen vehicles?").

Most of this hydrogen is used in oil production and to produce ammonia (NH3) as a fertilizer-base.

They talked about this because their first news story was about a PROPOSED hydrogen production plant which would use green energy (solar/wind/tidal power?) and a new nano-material to electrolyze sea water to produce hydrogen. Of course this project remains to be proven.

User avatar
TOS
Posts: 40374
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2013 5:48 pm

Post by TOS »

toyota remains wedded to fuel cell technology but i just don't think it has a future for personal transport

i simply can't imagine the construction of a vast new infrastructure to support hydrogen

and if there are trust issues with batteries, imagine how people will feel about hydrogen

if there's a future for hydrogen it's in aviation, maybe even shipping

"TOS ain’t havin no horserace round here. “Policies” is the coin of the realm." -- iDaemon
User avatar
obvs
Posts: 28294
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2008 8:44 pm
Title: Socialist isn't an epithet;it's a badge.

Post by obvs »

DEyncourt wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 5:02 pm

The guys and gal of the Skeptic's Guide to the Universe pointed out over this past weekend (episode #839 dated 08/07/21) that our MAIN (95%) source for hydrogen--because this is cheapest way to produce large amounts--is by stripping off hydrogen from natural gas AND which results in releases of CO2 (so as one of the SGU rogues put it: "What's the point to switching to hydrogen vehicles?").

Most of this hydrogen is used in oil production and to produce ammonia (NH3) as a fertilizer-base.

They talked about this because their first news story was about a PROPOSED hydrogen production plant which would use green energy (solar/wind/tidal power?) and a new nano-material to electrolyze sea water to produce hydrogen. Of course this project remains to be proven.

There are a lot of potential sources of hydrogen, including nuclear.

And the main reason why there are so many dangers with nuclear as we currently understand it has to do with the fact that current nuclear reactors were designed the way they were because uranium was being used in nuclear weapons research.

There's an alternative: thorium molten salt reactors, and they're a lot less dangerous.

China is building a thorium molten salt reactor now, and there's research being done into using such reactors to generate usable hydrogen.

User avatar
Pariah
Posts: 23168
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 5:45 pm
Title: Know Your Enemy

Post by Pariah »

Hydrogen does not stand a chance against electricity.
While it will need to be beefed up we already have a well established electrical distribution system and making a many car charging lot is cheap as hell compared to the facilities hydrogen would require.
Insurance, regulatory burden and practicality are all on electrics side.

Not even duct tape will fix stupid, but it can muffle the sound.
User avatar
obvs
Posts: 28294
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2008 8:44 pm
Title: Socialist isn't an epithet;it's a badge.

Post by obvs »

A hydrogen vehicle can be refueled in five minutes and go 25-50% farther than an electric-only vehicle. It would fit a lot more easily with the gas station model than electric-only vehicles.

Electric-only vehicles also have an issue in that their batteries use lithium, which isn't exactly environmentally friendly.

User avatar
Pariah
Posts: 23168
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 5:45 pm
Title: Know Your Enemy

Post by Pariah »

obvs wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 10:45 pm

A hydrogen vehicle can be refueled in five minutes and go 25-50% farther than an electric-only vehicle.

LOL, the range of a particular vehicle is entirely arbitrary. Just depends on how much energu storage you put in it.

Not even duct tape will fix stupid, but it can muffle the sound.
User avatar
obvs
Posts: 28294
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2008 8:44 pm
Title: Socialist isn't an epithet;it's a badge.

Post by obvs »

Well that's not true at all...

User avatar
maurvir
Posts: 26133
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2010 10:13 pm
Title: Steamed meat popsicle

Post by maurvir »

Two words - hydrogen embrittlement. I suspect fuel cells will be considered a wear item in these vehicles.

Either way, the correct solution is for people to essentially lease energy storage in such a way that it can be easily swapped. Sort of like propane exchanges now.

User avatar
TOS
Posts: 40374
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2013 5:48 pm

Post by TOS »

obvs wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 10:45 pm

A hydrogen vehicle can be refueled in five minutes and go 25-50% farther than an electric-only vehicle. It would fit a lot more easily with the gas station model than electric-only vehicles.

Electric-only vehicles also have an issue in that their batteries use lithium, which isn't exactly environmentally friendly.

there are other battery designs which are in the pipeline, such as solid state, iron-air -- we're barely in the model t stage of the ev timeline, i doubt lithium will be at the heart of it too much longer

and yes hydrogen can mimic, to some degree, the current gas station model, but the it's not as though they can just put hydrogen into the station gas tanks and let fate take its course, the entire thing will have to be rebuilt from the ground up, including depots, trucks, pipelines -- it's a massive undertaking

it's technically possible but i really don't see it happening, and i don't think it's even desirable

"TOS ain’t havin no horserace round here. “Policies” is the coin of the realm." -- iDaemon
User avatar
DukeofNuke
Posts: 33620
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2008 1:33 pm
Title: FREE RADICAL
Location: Scintillating!

Post by DukeofNuke »

Hydrogen ...

Image

intellectual/hipster/nihilist

"Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but not their own facts."
-Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan
User avatar
juice
Posts: 12466
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 12:26 am
Title: Inadvertently correct

Post by juice »

DukeofNuke wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 10:43 am

Hydrogen ...

Image

Counterpoint:

Insert any number of oil refinery fires over the years

User avatar
TOS
Posts: 40374
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2013 5:48 pm

Post by TOS »

juice wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 1:12 pm
DukeofNuke wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 10:43 am

Hydrogen ...

Image

those were after oil was established ... hydrogen is facing that image before it even gets to the starting line

Counterpoint:

Insert any number of oil refinery fires over the years

counter-counterpoint: oil was well established before massive refineries were built, while hydrogen is saddled with that image before it even gets started

Last edited by TOS on Tue Aug 10, 2021 6:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"TOS ain’t havin no horserace round here. “Policies” is the coin of the realm." -- iDaemon
User avatar
Pariah
Posts: 23168
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 5:45 pm
Title: Know Your Enemy

Post by Pariah »

juice wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 1:12 pm
DukeofNuke wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 10:43 am

Hydrogen ...

Image

Counterpoint:

Insert any number of oil refinery fires over the years

Ya, but that is not an argument to keep having to deal with highly volatile, extremely explosive energy sources when a much safer one is also far easier to implement.
I dunno, maybe there is a niche hydrogen can fill, kinda like the niche CNG fills today but as far as the mainstay fuel goes it will be electric going forward.

Not even duct tape will fix stupid, but it can muffle the sound.
DEyncourt
Posts: 18546
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 2:38 am

Post by DEyncourt »

On that episode of the Skeptic's Guide to the Universe FOLLOWING their discussion about that possible new source for generating hydrogen gas, they discussed how hydrogen might be used. One item that Dr. Steven Novella suggested was for the train system. Because of the relatively low energy density for hydrogen gas such that it requires high compression to have enough fuel, trains have a LOT of leeway for carrying enough fuel onboard. A few tons EACH for containers holding compressed hydrogen? Not really a problem for trains.

BUT we still have to get around the problem of generating enough hydrogen. Yes, obvs talked about how practically any electrical source could be used to electrolyze water into hydrogen and oxygen, but we aren't doing that NOW. This is a basic supply and demand problem: no one wants to develop the hydrogen fuel stations that would allow that gas to become readily available everywhere like gasoline stations are now without hydrogen cars, but also no one wants to create (many) hydrogen vehicles when there are only a handful of hydrogen fuel stations available.

User avatar
Pariah
Posts: 23168
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 5:45 pm
Title: Know Your Enemy

Post by Pariah »

It would be interesting to see if cities in arid climates would see local weather changes from the water vapor emitted by hydrogen vehicles.

Not even duct tape will fix stupid, but it can muffle the sound.
DEyncourt
Posts: 18546
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 2:38 am

Post by DEyncourt »

Pariah wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 10:27 pm

It would be interesting to see if cities in arid climates would see local weather changes from the water vapor emitted by hydrogen vehicles.

:shrug: Burning gasoline produces a lot of water vapor too.

User avatar
ukimalefu
Posts: 46649
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 3:52 pm
Title: Screen toucher
Contact:

Post by ukimalefu »

DEyncourt wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 11:36 pm
Pariah wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 10:27 pm

It would be interesting to see if cities in arid climates would see local weather changes from the water vapor emitted by hydrogen vehicles.

:shrug: Burning gasoline produces a lot of water vapor too.

I think it's better if it's ONLY water vapor.

But hydrogen cars won't happen. Every car company that is making electric cars is making them with batteries. The only hydrogen car I know is the toyota.

User avatar
maurvir
Posts: 26133
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2010 10:13 pm
Title: Steamed meat popsicle

Post by maurvir »

Toyota bet on the wrong horse, as the market is moving to lithium ion batteries. Nastier for the environment in the end, but quicker to get to market now. Which, as it happens, is kind of important, as we need to transition away from gas quickly.

Also, there is absolutely nothing that says you can't recycle the lithium in batteries, which is another reason why I'm surprised no one has talked about leasing whole packs.

User avatar
Metacell
Posts: 11552
Joined: Thu Nov 18, 2010 1:58 am
Title: Chocolate Brahma
Location: Lidsville
Contact:

Post by Metacell »

Yeah, they bet on Betamax, but we're going with VHS again. Still, that technology does have a very promising future when hydrogen can be easily harvested and contained.

Remember, people, to forgive is divine. In other words, it ain't human.
User avatar
ukimalefu
Posts: 46649
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 3:52 pm
Title: Screen toucher
Contact:

Post by ukimalefu »

This one does not need 1.21 Jigowatts.

I mean, if you're gonna build an electric car why not do it with some style?

https://youtu.be/A6yTNvl-s-Y

User avatar
Pariah
Posts: 23168
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 5:45 pm
Title: Know Your Enemy

Post by Pariah »

ukimalefu wrote: Wed Aug 11, 2021 3:38 am
DEyncourt wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 11:36 pm
Pariah wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 10:27 pm

It would be interesting to see if cities in arid climates would see local weather changes from the water vapor emitted by hydrogen vehicles.

:shrug: Burning gasoline produces a lot of water vapor too.

I think it's better if it's ONLY water vapor.

But hydrogen cars won't happen. Every car company that is making electric cars is making them with batteries. The only hydrogen car I know is the toyota.

Not that I really think it would be a problem but burning gas produces a small amount of water. Burning hydrogen produces in water approximately twice the mass of the hydrogen burned.

Not even duct tape will fix stupid, but it can muffle the sound.
DEyncourt
Posts: 18546
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 2:38 am

Post by DEyncourt »

The main component of gasoline is some isomer of octane which is C8H18 (for now, let's ignore those minor components). While some percentage of used gasoline remains "unburnt" in the form of shorter hydrocarbon chains--a major air pollutant--because of the nature of ICEs, and that water vapor isn't readily obvious because every ICE runs very hot, but it is there.

From Wikipedia:

Molecular weights of the representative octane combustion are C8H18 114, O2 32, CO2 44, H2O 18; therefore 1 kg of fuel reacts with 3.51 kg of oxygen to produce 3.09 kg of carbon dioxide and 1.42 kg of water.

[bold added]

Those numbers reflect a theoretical complete burning of every octane molecule. Actual ICEs are quite a bit less efficient than that, but they do not produce "a small amount of water".

User avatar
j_tso
Posts: 1302
Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2008 2:46 am
Location: Austin, TX

Post by j_tso »

Not exactly the opposite of the truck blocking charging stations, Driver arrested after crashing Tesla into Austin gas pumps, causing explosion

User avatar
DukeofNuke
Posts: 33620
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2008 1:33 pm
Title: FREE RADICAL
Location: Scintillating!

Post by DukeofNuke »

H2O is a byproduct of the catalytic converter.
You can see it dripping out of tailpipes.

intellectual/hipster/nihilist

"Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but not their own facts."
-Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan
DEyncourt
Posts: 18546
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 2:38 am

Post by DEyncourt »

DukeofNuke wrote: Thu Aug 12, 2021 4:00 pm

H2O is a byproduct of the catalytic converter.
You can see it dripping out of tailpipes.

True. Catalytic converters ATTEMPT to burn the leftover hydrocarbon chains (somewhat unsuccessfully considering how there are still considerable hydrocarbons in most cities' smog), though much less since the requirement of catalytic converters at least in US cars.

But there is a lot of water generated within ICEs alone. While my Wikipedia quote was a theoretical ideal burning of gasoline and dealt with weight only, with ICEs not being able to run ideally we could guesstimate that for every gallon of gasoline burned about a gallon of water (as vapor) may be generated (so well below that theoretical 1.42 gallons). Yes, yes, gallons are a volume measurement and not a weight measurement, and the density of water is not the same as gasoline, hence "guesstimate".

Perhaps AFTER electric vehicles become the majority of vehicular traffic, then we might find that that huge amount of water WAS significantly altering city climates. it wouldn't be the first time that we humans simply ignored such things to our detriment: "Water vapor? Who cares about that?"

User avatar
maurvir
Posts: 26133
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2010 10:13 pm
Title: Steamed meat popsicle

Post by maurvir »

The amount of water created by ICE vehicles is definitely significant, and one of the reasons why cars that only run short distances often have rusty tailpipes. You need to run the car long enough to heat up all of the exhaust components to avoid liquid water remaining in the muffler, for instance. Once the exhaust gets hot enough, it will just boil off.

I imagine the overall effect is noticeable, but compared to atmospheric moisture in general, I doubt it is a major component. That said, we did see some pretty significant changes for a while after 9/11 when all the airplanes were grounded over the US.

DEyncourt
Posts: 18546
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 2:38 am

Post by DEyncourt »

Hmm. Such exhaust rusting is not so prevalent in more recent cars because their catalytic converters ALWAYS run very hot. They are such that one must be cautious with catalytic converters such as parking a car in a vacant field with taller grass.

Post Reply