Electric cars are the future

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TOS posted:
Pariah posted:
In the link below the AAA says that the use of the heater reduces an EVs range by 40%. The cold by itself reduces range by 12%. I am not sure if that means it adds up to 52% or not, the article is unclear.
The test was done at 20f which is a pretty mild January day where I come from. What happens at minus 10f? That is 40 degrees colder than the test. If you live in the Northern third of the country -10f temps are common.
Riddle me this: Assuming a nominal range of 300 miles, ambient temp -10f.
You drive your EV 50 miles to work where your EV sits for 8.5 hours in an open parking lot. Do you have enough charge at the end of the day to get home?


https://apnews.com/04029bd1e0a94cd59ff9540a398c12d1


charging station at parking lot, charging station at gas stations, charging stations all over the place

i'm not sure why driving range is more of a concern with electric than with gasoline

I presume because it get a little tiring when you're exhausted but you have to stop to recharge your car before you get home, every single stick fiddling day.

Also there's a flaw with that statistic that 99% of the time an electric car has enough range for your daily trip: that reasoning can be used to eliminate seat belts from your car.
DukeofNuke FREE RADICAL
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How long does it take to charge an E/V car, anyway?
Do you have to swipe a card? How much does it cost?
Pariah Know Your Enemy
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DukeofNuke posted:
How long does it take to charge an E/V car, anyway?
Do you have to swipe a card? How much does it cost?

I recharged my car today, added 325 miles of range and bought a pop.
Took less than 10 mins.
DukeofNuke FREE RADICAL
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Pariah posted:
DukeofNuke posted:
How long does it take to charge an E/V car, anyway?
Do you have to swipe a card? How much does it cost?

I recharged my car today, added 325 miles of range and bought a pop.
Took less than 10 mins.

I'm sorry. I missed the part where you had an electric car. Congrats! BTW.
So, you don't have to charge it fully? You can measure the charge by miles.
It doesn't have one of these:

Image
mmaverick my steady systematic decline
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Pariah posted:
TOS posted:
Pariah posted:
In the link below the AAA says that the use of the heater reduces an EVs range by 40%. The cold by itself reduces range by 12%. I am not sure if that means it adds up to 52% or not, the article is unclear.
The test was done at 20f which is a pretty mild January day where I come from. What happens at minus 10f? That is 40 degrees colder than the test. If you live in the Northern third of the country -10f temps are common.
Riddle me this: Assuming a nominal range of 300 miles, ambient temp -10f.
You drive your EV 50 miles to work where your EV sits for 8.5 hours in an open parking lot. Do you have enough charge at the end of the day to get home?


https://apnews.com/04029bd1e0a94cd59ff9540a398c12d1


charging station at parking lot, charging station at gas stations, charging stations all over the place

i'm not sure why driving range is more of a concern with electric than with gasoline

LOL, seriously you wonder?
I would say range is not a concern with ICE cars because, within a low single digit difference, you have the same range regardless of the weather.

I am not trying to be contentous, I am seeking data. I have searched and no one has published any reports on EV range in actual really cold temps. 20f is a warm day in mid winter. I want to know how things are at typical deep cold winter conditions.


I see many, many ICE vehicles just not start in the winter. Then there’s the trucks that have to cover their front grill with cardboard.
I’ll look for an article I was reading today from a model 3 driver in Winnipeg. He lost about 40% last winter.

Edit: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba ... -1.4996501

I misremembered. He lost about 40% on the coldest days in Winnipeg. If it’s working during a Winnipeg cold snap, it’s going to be good enough for almost anyone.
mmaverick my steady systematic decline
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DukeofNuke posted:
How long does it take to charge an E/V car, anyway?
Do you have to swipe a card? How much does it cost?


Yes you swipe a card. It costs anywhere from free to a couple bucks.
mmaverick my steady systematic decline
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Betonhaus posted:
TOS posted:
Pariah posted:
In the link below the AAA says that the use of the heater reduces an EVs range by 40%. The cold by itself reduces range by 12%. I am not sure if that means it adds up to 52% or not, the article is unclear.
The test was done at 20f which is a pretty mild January day where I come from. What happens at minus 10f? That is 40 degrees colder than the test. If you live in the Northern third of the country -10f temps are common.
Riddle me this: Assuming a nominal range of 300 miles, ambient temp -10f.
You drive your EV 50 miles to work where your EV sits for 8.5 hours in an open parking lot. Do you have enough charge at the end of the day to get home?


https://apnews.com/04029bd1e0a94cd59ff9540a398c12d1


charging station at parking lot, charging station at gas stations, charging stations all over the place

i'm not sure why driving range is more of a concern with electric than with gasoline

I presume because it get a little tiring when you're exhausted but you have to stop to recharge your car before you get home, every single stick fiddling day.

Also there's a flaw with that statistic that 99% of the time an electric car has enough range for your daily trip: that reasoning can be used to eliminate seat belts from your car.


Your argument is flawed to the extreme. Trips, even spontaneous trips, can be planned and worked around. Accidents are either a crime, or unplanned.

Also, it turns out you don’t need to charge your
EV daily. Do you gas up every day?
Pariah Know Your Enemy
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Only people who have no experience with working would suggest that employers are likely to spend to the money to install dozens of charging stations for their employees.
ukimalefu dysfunctional
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I really do like that one, but there's also this

Image
ukimalefu dysfunctional
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C. Ives Lacks Critical stick fiddling Thinking
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Pariah posted:
Only people who have no experience with working would suggest that employers are likely to spend to the money to install dozens of charging stations for their employees.

This.
TOS
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Pariah posted:
Only people who have no experience with working would suggest that employers are likely to spend to the money to install dozens of charging stations for their employees.


mmav has no experience with working? i don't either? really? that's your argument?

charging stations are popping up all over the place, often with government assistance, plus fast-charging technology will in almost all cases be able to give you enough juice to get home in the same amount of time it takes to fill a tank of gas

seems like you're just looking for reasons to object to a technology that is 100% certain to be adopted on a mass basis whether you like it or not
ukimalefu dysfunctional
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TOS posted:
Pariah posted:
Only people who have no experience with working would suggest that employers are likely to spend to the money to install dozens of charging stations for their employees.


mmav has no experience with working? i don't either? really? that's your argument?

charging stations are popping up all over the place, often with government assistance, plus fast-charging technology will in almost all cases be able to give you enough juice to get home in the same amount of time it takes to fill a tank of gas

seems like you're just looking for reasons to object to a technology that is 100% certain to be adopted on a mass basis whether you like it or not


Also, companies could put chargers in their parking lots and find a way to make money from them, while using it as publicity at the same time, "we put chargers for electric cars, because we care" (buy from us!)

BUT, most workers wouldn't have electric cars anyway, I think. Ask me again in 10 years.
Pariah Know Your Enemy
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TOS posted:
Pariah posted:
Only people who have no experience with working would suggest that employers are likely to spend to the money to install dozens of charging stations for their employees.


mmav has no experience with working? i don't either? really? that's your argument?

charging stations are popping up all over the place, often with government assistance, plus fast-charging technology will in almost all cases be able to give you enough juice to get home in the same amount of time it takes to fill a tank of gas

seems like you're just looking for reasons to object to a technology that is 100% certain to be adopted on a mass basis whether you like it or not

Nope, just looking for information. I am skeptical by nature so I figure the reason no one is doing testing below 20f is that such testing would not serve the EV industry.
What other explanation makes sense?
mmaverick my steady systematic decline
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https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/tesl ... exclusive/

Here’s another article about cold weather testing of electric vehicles.
ukimalefu dysfunctional
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I believe more than one canadian in this very thread has mentioned seeing lots of Teslas up there, so they're popular? they don't care about the reduced range?
DukeofNuke FREE RADICAL
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TOS posted:
Pariah posted:
Only people who have no experience with working would suggest that employers are likely to spend to the money to install dozens of charging stations for their employees.


mmav has no experience with working? i don't either? really? that's your argument?

charging stations are popping up all over the place, often with government assistance, plus fast-charging technology will in almost all cases be able to give you enough juice to get home in the same amount of time it takes to fill a tank of gas

seems like you're just looking for reasons to object to a technology that is 100% certain to be adopted on a mass basis whether you like it or not

Maybe in your country, but this is America, where all government assistance must be pre-approved by Big Oil!
dv
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ukimalefu posted:
I believe more than one canadian in this very thread has mentioned seeing lots of Teslas up there, so they're popular? they don't care about the reduced range?

Most Canadians live in the southern bits of the country, relatively close to the border, and south of a good chunk of the US. So their weather isn't all that frigid.

The range reduction in cold weather is overstated by EV detractors.
mmaverick my steady systematic decline
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dv posted:
ukimalefu posted:
I believe more than one canadian in this very thread has mentioned seeing lots of Teslas up there, so they're popular? they don't care about the reduced range?

Most Canadians live in the southern bits of the country, relatively close to the border, and south of a good chunk of the US. So their weather isn't all that frigid.

The range reduction in cold weather is overstated by EV detractors.


It was -15c today at work. I consider that frigid. Luckily my town is usually warming than that. -19 outside my bunkhouse right now though.
-18, with a wind chill of - 30 earlier. And we're just getting started
arkayn Aaarrrggghhhh
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It is currently 22c this morning.
TOS
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right around freezing in my neck of the woods, haven't noticed any decrease in tesla driving
ukimalefu dysfunctional
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TOS
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it occurs to me those chunky lines could lead to much easier manufacturing
macnuke Afar
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TOS posted:
it occurs to me those chunky lines could lead to much easier manufacturing


being it's all basically flat panels or a slight bend at most... edge rolls are pretty easy on the tooling.
yeah. lots cheaper to stamp out.
TOS
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or maybe he's just a wasteful driver
mmaverick my steady systematic decline
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TOS posted:
it occurs to me those chunky lines could lead to much easier manufacturing


Did this occur to you before or after Elon explicitly stated that was a reason for the design ;)
maurvir Steamed meat popsicle
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mmaverick posted:
TOS posted:
it occurs to me those chunky lines could lead to much easier manufacturing


Did this occur to you before or after Elon explicitly stated that was a reason for the design ;)


I believe the stated reason was that anything more complex would break the machines used to press the panels due to the thickness of the steel. Not so much "easier to manufacture" as "won't constantly break the factory equipment during production".
mmaverick my steady systematic decline
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maurvir posted:
mmaverick posted:
TOS posted:
it occurs to me those chunky lines could lead to much easier manufacturing


Did this occur to you before or after Elon explicitly stated that was a reason for the design ;)


I believe the stated reason was that anything more complex would break the machines used to press the panels due to the thickness of the steel. Not so much "easier to manufacture" as "won't constantly break the factory equipment during production".


They also stated that not having to stamp and paint would make it chi eager to produce.
dv
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Pariah posted:
TOS posted:
Pariah posted:
Only people who have no experience with working would suggest that employers are likely to spend to the money to install dozens of charging stations for their employees.


mmav has no experience with working? i don't either? really? that's your argument?

charging stations are popping up all over the place, often with government assistance, plus fast-charging technology will in almost all cases be able to give you enough juice to get home in the same amount of time it takes to fill a tank of gas

seems like you're just looking for reasons to object to a technology that is 100% certain to be adopted on a mass basis whether you like it or not

Nope, just looking for information. I am skeptical by nature so I figure the reason no one is doing testing below 20f is that such testing would not serve the EV industry.
What other explanation makes sense?


The explanation is:

1) They're doing testing well below 20F.

2) Companies with large numbers of highly paid white collar type employees spend more money on perks like charging stations, in lieu of paying those employees even more money. Also, people who can afford $100k cars tend to be in positions within their organization where they can influence budget priorities. So it's actually not all that uncommon and in most cases is more a question of "when" than "if", pending sufficient middle-management whining.

2b) Companies with an "image" to project will proactively place insufficient-but-nonzero numbers of charging stations in visible areas to be "cool."
ukimalefu dysfunctional
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TOS posted:
or maybe he's just a wasteful driver


Yeah

He must be used to a smaller car, and drove the truck without considering how much bigger it is. No excuse, bad driver.

Now, shouldn't the self driving cameras/sensors/whatever have seen the traffic cone? or does the cybertruck doesn't have those? I doubt it doesn't. "It's only a prototype"?

Done on purpose to insure pictures and video of the cybertruck "out in the real world" went viral all over the news/social media? free publicity!

Nah, let's just go with "wasteful driver".
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dv posted:
Pariah posted:
TOS posted:
Pariah posted:
Only people who have no experience with working would suggest that employers are likely to spend to the money to install dozens of charging stations for their employees.


mmav has no experience with working? i don't either? really? that's your argument?

charging stations are popping up all over the place, often with government assistance, plus fast-charging technology will in almost all cases be able to give you enough juice to get home in the same amount of time it takes to fill a tank of gas

seems like you're just looking for reasons to object to a technology that is 100% certain to be adopted on a mass basis whether you like it or not

Nope, just looking for information. I am skeptical by nature so I figure the reason no one is doing testing below 20f is that such testing would not serve the EV industry.
What other explanation makes sense?


The explanation is:

1) They're doing testing well below 20F.

2) Companies with large numbers of highly paid white collar type employees spend more money on perks like charging stations, in lieu of paying those employees even more money. Also, people who can afford $100k cars tend to be in positions within their organization where they can influence budget priorities. So it's actually not all that uncommon and in most cases is more a question of "when" than "if", pending sufficient middle-management whining.

2b) Companies with an "image" to project will proactively place insufficient-but-nonzero numbers of charging stations in visible areas to be "cool."

Small business employs more than 50% of workers and the largest private employer is Walmart, followed by other retail chains, none of which seem likely to spend billions on employees they won't pay decently in the first place.
dv
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Pariah posted:
dv posted:
Pariah posted:
TOS posted:
Pariah posted:
Only people who have no experience with working would suggest that employers are likely to spend to the money to install dozens of charging stations for their employees.


mmav has no experience with working? i don't either? really? that's your argument?

charging stations are popping up all over the place, often with government assistance, plus fast-charging technology will in almost all cases be able to give you enough juice to get home in the same amount of time it takes to fill a tank of gas

seems like you're just looking for reasons to object to a technology that is 100% certain to be adopted on a mass basis whether you like it or not

Nope, just looking for information. I am skeptical by nature so I figure the reason no one is doing testing below 20f is that such testing would not serve the EV industry.
What other explanation makes sense?


The explanation is:

1) They're doing testing well below 20F.

2) Companies with large numbers of highly paid white collar type employees spend more money on perks like charging stations, in lieu of paying those employees even more money. Also, people who can afford $100k cars tend to be in positions within their organization where they can influence budget priorities. So it's actually not all that uncommon and in most cases is more a question of "when" than "if", pending sufficient middle-management whining.

2b) Companies with an "image" to project will proactively place insufficient-but-nonzero numbers of charging stations in visible areas to be "cool."

Small business employs more than 50% of workers and the largest private employer is Walmart, followed by other retail chains, none of which seem likely to spend billions on employees they won't pay decently in the first place.


Then they can charge the EVs they can't afford at home, which is where nearly all charging will end up having to happen anyway. Fast charging is good advertising but it's bad for batteries.

Work chargers are a relatively inexpensive (a couple thousand bucks a unit) convenience for people with range anxiety, they're not a cornerstone of EV viability.

And many of those small businesses are either the aforementioned "cool" companies or home-office affairs where a "workplace" charger is the one in your garage, but you pay for it through the business and get a tax deduction.

And honestly, we need to stop lumping independent contractors and franchise operators into the "small business" numbers in order to feel all entrepreneurial. They're as beholden to corporate as any cubicle drone. It's propaganda.
Last night I went to my local Tesla showroom and spoke with a saleslady there. Since I told her I was interested in the Model 3 she invited me to come sit in the driver's seat of their floor model (they also had a Model X and a Model Y) while she sat in the front passenger seat in order to show me some of its features and answer my questions.

I told her that I was thinking of making a road trip this coming summer to visit a friend up in Seattle, so I asked her if she could demonstrate how the Tesla could set up that trip. She showed me that as it was, that Model 3 could make the first leg from that Torrance, CA, showroom (in suburb LA) to the Buttonwillow Tesla recharge station where there are 18 units with 11 currently being used. Because the batteries would be nearly empty by the time I got there, that recharge would require about 20 minutes and would cost about $10, so it might take a restroom break and get a bite to eat before being ready to go again.

Listen. I know that a lot of people suffer from rather extreme battery anxiety with their smartphones, but do recall that unlike those, many cars (not just Telsas) have power recovery systems like regenerative braking so it isn't a loss that begins immediately upon the car being unplugged. Also, in your ICE vehicles do you go from gas station to gas station in order to keep your gas tank as topped off as possible? Of course not, so why do so many people insist on treating their all-electric cars like that? If you are on a long car trip, you could:

1) pack up to leave,
2) drive to the nearest Telsa recharge station,
3) set it up to get recharged (if that station happens to be very busy),
4) NOW get breakfast,
5) THEN return and set off on the next leg.

There is a home recharging unit which is sold separately and has been designed to work ONLY with those high-wattage outlets so in most homes these would be reserved for washing machines/dryers.

My saleslady suggested that if I were to find myself in the middle of a large region devoid of any Tesla recharge stations (such as eastern Wyoming, another place that I am considering to travel to though perhaps not THIS year), then I could look for the nearest RV campground because they usually will have such high-wattage outlets for RVs and use the recharge cable that comes with each Telsa.

In terms of overall size, that Telsa Model 3 is roughly the same size as my 2007 Prius. There is a small storage space under the front hood and a sizable trunk space beneath the rear hatch and behind the rear seats.

Hrumph. I do not recall seeing a cigarette lighter outlet anywhere, so this would mean that several pieces of electronic gear I have in my Prius would not be usable in a Model 3. Or maybe I just missed those outlets.

One small irritant: the outside handles of the Model 3 are such that those on the driver side are more easily handled by the left hand while those on the passenger side are more easily handled by the right hand. Harder to describe that to show.

Well, I am not quite yet set to buy a Model 3, but I am seriously thinking about it.
I don't get how that's an irritant though unless it's a right hand drive. Otherwise you have to do a twirly to get into your car if they were reversed.
This pic shows my problem:

Image

This is one of the doors on the drivers side. When closed the handle is flush with the door. To open this door you must press upon that wider segment on the right which allows you to grab the handle on the left. Upon that floor model I used my left hand because that is easier with one hand than pressing that wider segment with my right thumb and then oddly manipulate my fingers to grab the handle. Not something I couldn't get used to, but irritating to me since my Prius' door handles have a modest dimple that allows anyone to grab its door handles with either hand and open that door with one hand.

BUT this article--from which I got that pic and which is about ANOTHER problem which I am unlikely to experience: frozen door handles--points out that when FULLY operational--so unlike my floor model--the Model 3 door handle will pop out when the owner approaches the door (perhaps including some button-pushing upon the key remote, actions which I am used to doing with my Prius).
Ahh. You cheaped out.
ukimalefu dysfunctional
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Electric cars are the future

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