tech challenge: developing an interplanetary internet

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TOS
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nasa, harvard & top coder working together to develop "secure solar system internet protocol"

Quote:
NASA has made significant progress in developing Disruption Tolerant Networking (DTN) protocols that aide in deep space communication. DTN protocols are an approach to network architecture that seeks to address the potential for lack of continuous connectivity in deep space. It is meant to aid NASA in the exploration of the solar system by overcoming communication time delays caused by interplanetary distances, and the disruptions caused by planetary rotation, orbits and limited transmission power.

While DTN protocols are currently able to transmit information, the disruptive and time delayed environment in space makes secure communication difficult. TopCoder is challenging its members to create a mechanism by which cryptographic keys are initialized, distributed and validated while using DTN protocols in order provide secure communications over vast distances in space.


Quote:
"Born out of a belief that 10 years in the future (i.e. about 2023) a richer networking environment than point-to-point radio links would be required to communicate, a small team of developers debated the architecture of an interplanetary Internet," said Vinton Cerf, Distinguished Visiting Scientist, NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory and Vice President and Chief Internet Evangelist at Google. "Today, that vision is being fulfilled with prototype operations on the surface of Mars and in orbit, on the International Space Station and on board the EPOXI comet-visiting spacecraft."


a bit jargon-heavy, but interesting ... i hope they get it working
ukimalefu Wasn't me
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Mars needs porn
maurvir Perfectly balanced - mostly
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ukimalefu posted:
Mars needs porn


Worry not - the first private quarters built on Mars will, as soon as it is occupied, contain porn. I would have said the first landing, but I suspect NASA would get grumpy if their landing party got distracted while they were scouting the place out.
FunkyRes The artist formerly known as resedit
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Sounds to me like a project designed to use up their excess budget so their budget doesn't get cut.
Say rather, sounds like they've got projects lined up that are expected to be necessary in the future and this one is low budget enough to fit into their much reduced funding this year.
FunkyRes The artist formerly known as resedit
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Or maybe an exercise do determine who works well in challenging projects so they know who to assign to the real projects. And yes, there is value in that.
DukeofNuke FREE RADICAL
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Quote:
... secure communications over vast distances in space.


They are afraid someone will hack the launch codes of the orbital nukes.
maurvir Perfectly balanced - mostly
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They don't want the NSA snooping on ET...
TOS
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FunkyRes posted:
Sounds to me like a project designed to use up their excess budget so their budget doesn't get cut.


excess budget? nasa is starved for funds
FunkyRes The artist formerly known as resedit
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TOS posted:
FunkyRes posted:
Sounds to me like a project designed to use up their excess budget so their budget doesn't get cut.


excess budget? nasa is starved for funds


I would have hoped that you are aware there are different departments within just about any government body that have there own budgets that are a part of the larger pie, and if they don't use it all, their slice gets cut for another slice that needs more of the pie.
TOS
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FunkyRes posted:
TOS posted:
FunkyRes posted:
Sounds to me like a project designed to use up their excess budget so their budget doesn't get cut.


excess budget? nasa is starved for funds


I would have hoped that you are aware there are different departments within just about any government body that have there own budgets that are a part of the larger pie, and if they don't use it all, their slice gets cut for another slice that needs more of the pie.


sweeping generalization, got it

without knowing anything at all about the agency, its goals or its current situation, you sure that generalization applies to this case?
FunkyRes The artist formerly known as resedit
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TOS posted:
without knowing anything at all about the agency, its goals or its current situation, you sure that generalization applies to this case?


Sure that it applies to this case? No.
I said that is what it sounds like to me. Not what it is.
This is actually a pretty worthwhile undertaking, and not just a “use up some cash” sort of thing. Besides, as TOS says, NASA is so dramatically underfunded that there are many worthwhile projects that already are woefully behind due to a lack of funding. But don’t let facts get in the way of a good knee jerk rant :D
TOS
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FunkyRes posted:
TOS posted:
without knowing anything at all about the agency, its goals or its current situation, you sure that generalization applies to this case?


Sure that it applies to this case? No.
I said that is what it sounds like to me. Not what it is.


it might interest you to know that nasa has been cut to the bone; it's now becoming obvious that soon, maybe as early as next year, they'll be able to afford the iss or their new manned launch system but not both -- and even the new system will only be capable of launching one crew per year at best, while the ISS is approaching its design life expectancy

determined to achieve as much science as possible with diminishing resources, they've set up prizes and partnerships with outside organizations, and this is an example of that

it's actually quite insulting that you should make the ludicrous assumption because the space agency has been singled out for rather nasty cuts and is still trying to work wonders

it's odd the things that pop into your head out of the blue
obvs not a cultural imperialist
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"Critical" has a few different definitions:
  1. inclined to find fault or to judge with severity, often too readily.

  2. occupied with or skilled in criticism.

  3. involving skillful judgment as to truth, merit, etc.; judicial: a critical analysis.

  4. of or pertaining to critics or criticism: critical essays.

  5. providing textual variants, proposed emendations, etc.: a critical edition of Chaucer.

  6. pertaining to or of the nature of a crisis: a critical shortage of food.

  7. of decisive importance with respect to the outcome; crucial: a critical moment.

  8. of essential importance; indispensable: a critical ingredient.

  9. Medicine/Medical . (of a patient's condition) having unstable and abnormal vital signs and other unfavorable indicators, as loss of appetite, poor mobility, or unconsciousness.

  10. Physics.
    1. a.pertaining to a state, value, or quantity at which one or more properties of a substance or system undergo a change.
    2. (of fissionable material) having enough mass to sustain a chain reaction.

When most people say "critical thinking" they use the third definition of "critical".

Res uses the first.
TOS
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oooo ... clevah

the scales have dropped from mine eyes
FunkyRes The artist formerly known as resedit
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Warin posted:
This is actually a pretty worthwhile undertaking, and not just a “use up some cash” sort of thing.


In a solar system, things orbit this great big honking thing called the sun and they do so at great distances.

Point to point really is better than hub and spoke for that.
maurvir Perfectly balanced - mostly
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http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2549.txt

This, only dragged out over the solar system, and without birds. ;)
FunkyRes The artist formerly known as resedit
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matt posted:
When most people say "critical thinking" they use the third definition of "critical".

Res uses the first.


Bull human waste.
maurvir Perfectly balanced - mostly
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FunkyRes posted:
matt posted:
When most people say "critical thinking" they use the third definition of "critical".

Res uses the first.


Bull human waste.


:facepalm:
ukimalefu Wasn't me
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matt posted:
"Critical" has a few different definitions:
  1. inclined to find fault or to judge with severity, often too readily.

  2. occupied with or skilled in criticism.

  3. involving skillful judgment as to truth, merit, etc.; judicial: a critical analysis.

  4. of or pertaining to critics or criticism: critical essays.

  5. providing textual variants, proposed emendations, etc.: a critical edition of Chaucer.

  6. pertaining to or of the nature of a crisis: a critical shortage of food.

  7. of decisive importance with respect to the outcome; crucial: a critical moment.

  8. of essential importance; indispensable: a critical ingredient.

  9. Medicine/Medical . (of a patient's condition) having unstable and abnormal vital signs and other unfavorable indicators, as loss of appetite, poor mobility, or unconsciousness.

  10. Physics.
    1. a.pertaining to a state, value, or quantity at which one or more properties of a substance or system undergo a change.
    2. (of fissionable material) having enough mass to sustain a chain reaction.

When most people say "critical thinking" they use the third definition of "critical".

Res uses the first.


Or in the case of engineering, A critical item is one where failure of such would endanger life, function of an electronic system, massive failure of a building, etc. Critical items generally receive much greater scrutiny and care in fabrication.
FunkyRes The artist formerly known as resedit
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ukimalefu posted:
Image

Image

Image


Nothing to do with what I said.
Frankly I don't know why I waste my time here.

That's the overall NASA budget and with departments inside NASA fighting over a shrinking budget, you bet that they will all make sure every penny they currently get is spent on something, whether it is really needed or not.

That's what you don't get.
So we're working on developing secure communications for space missions that might happen several decades down the road because we can't afford them now and by the time we might actually be able to afford them in the future all of todays tech will be obsolete.
Government.
Yeah baybee.
juice Inadvertently correct
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ukimalefu posted:
Image

Image

Image

What we need is to find commies or terrorists in space. Then funding would be a snap!
ukimalefu Wasn't me
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agedgruel posted:
ukimalefu posted:
Image

Image

Image

What we need is to find commies or terrorists in space. Then funding would be a snap!


Or oil.
Not expensive enough. If there was a layer of gold roughly at the orbit attainable by the space shuttle, it would not be cost effective to go get it. He3 on the Moon might be worth going to get.
TOS
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Farmerkev posted:
So we're working on developing secure communications for space missions that might happen several decades down the road because we can't afford them now and by the time we might actually be able to afford them in the future all of todays tech will be obsolete.
Government.
Yeah baybee.


not correct

there are already unmanned space missions operating around the sun, the moon, mercury, mars, jupiter and saturn, as well as several asteroids and comets plus (maybe) interstellar space

many more missions are planned, not just by the us but the eu, russia, japan and, reportedly, china

each mission relies on independent, separate communications; the idea is to develop a network that future missions could metaphorically plug into, rendering the process far simpler

this isn't some boondoggle for programs that won't happen; it's a plan that will benefit all future missions, manned and unmanned

and keep in mind it's an internet protocol ... how much could it possibly cost, for crying out loud?

conservatives are such strange creatures ...
We're at the limit of what radio will provide. Think of the forest of radio telescopes necessary to communicate with probes headed to the outer solar system. If we're going to go further or get data back in a reasonable time frame, we need better. They recently tested laser communication sent back and forth to the Moon for example.
chikie The same deviled egg
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Farmerkev posted:
So we're working on developing secure communications for space missions that might happen several decades down the road because we can't afford them now and by the time we might actually be able to afford them in the future all of todays tech will be obsolete.
Government.
Yeah baybee.

For what it's worth, TCP/IP has it's roots in the 1960s.
chikie posted:
Farmerkev posted:
So we're working on developing secure communications for space missions that might happen several decades down the road because we can't afford them now and by the time we might actually be able to afford them in the future all of todays tech will be obsolete.
Government.
Yeah baybee.

For what it's worth, TCP/IP has it's roots in the 1960s.


I know, it just seems we have more pressing problems and budgetary constraints at the moment than worrying about communicating with something that isn't going to happen.
mmaverick my steady systematic decline
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TOS posted:
Farmerkev posted:
So we're working on developing secure communications for space missions that might happen several decades down the road because we can't afford them now and by the time we might actually be able to afford them in the future all of todays tech will be obsolete.
Government.
Yeah baybee.


not correct

there are already unmanned space missions operating around the sun, the moon, mercury, mars, jupiter and saturn, as well as several asteroids and comets plus (maybe) interstellar space

many more missions are planned, not just by the us but the eu, russia, japan and, reportedly, china

each mission relies on independent, separate communications; the idea is to develop a network that future missions could metaphorically plug into, rendering the process far simpler

this isn't some boondoggle for programs that won't happen; it's a plan that will benefit all future missions, manned and unmanned

and keep in mind it's an internet protocol ... how much could it possibly cost, for crying out loud?

conservatives are such strange creatures ...


Posting it again because apparently kev missed it.
mmaverick posted:
TOS posted:
Farmerkev posted:
So we're working on developing secure communications for space missions that might happen several decades down the road because we can't afford them now and by the time we might actually be able to afford them in the future all of todays tech will be obsolete.
Government.
Yeah baybee.


not correct

there are already unmanned space missions operating around the sun, the moon, mercury, mars, jupiter and saturn, as well as several asteroids and comets plus (maybe) interstellar space

many more missions are planned, not just by the us but the eu, russia, japan and, reportedly, china

each mission relies on independent, separate communications; the idea is to develop a network that future missions could metaphorically plug into, rendering the process far simpler

this isn't some boondoggle for programs that won't happen; it's a plan that will benefit all future missions, manned and unmanned

and keep in mind it's an internet protocol ... how much could it possibly cost, for crying out loud?

conservatives are such strange creatures ...


Posting it again because apparently kev missed it.


Shall I post the national debt and teetering on the brink economy that you seem to have missed?
TOS
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Farmerkev posted:
mmaverick posted:
TOS posted:
Farmerkev posted:
So we're working on developing secure communications for space missions that might happen several decades down the road because we can't afford them now and by the time we might actually be able to afford them in the future all of todays tech will be obsolete.
Government.
Yeah baybee.


not correct

there are already unmanned space missions operating around the sun, the moon, mercury, mars, jupiter and saturn, as well as several asteroids and comets plus (maybe) interstellar space

many more missions are planned, not just by the us but the eu, russia, japan and, reportedly, china

each mission relies on independent, separate communications; the idea is to develop a network that future missions could metaphorically plug into, rendering the process far simpler

this isn't some boondoggle for programs that won't happen; it's a plan that will benefit all future missions, manned and unmanned

and keep in mind it's an internet protocol ... how much could it possibly cost, for crying out loud?

conservatives are such strange creatures ...


Posting it again because apparently kev missed it.


Shall I post the national debt and teetering on the brink economy that you seem to have missed?


so your concern is for the national debt and the way of expressing it is to grumble about a tiny, hell a microscopic little project that could be immediately cancelled without the slightest influence on the economy or the deficit?
TOS posted:
Farmerkev posted:
mmaverick posted:
TOS posted:
Farmerkev posted:
So we're working on developing secure communications for space missions that might happen several decades down the road because we can't afford them now and by the time we might actually be able to afford them in the future all of todays tech will be obsolete.
Government.
Yeah baybee.


not correct

there are already unmanned space missions operating around the sun, the moon, mercury, mars, jupiter and saturn, as well as several asteroids and comets plus (maybe) interstellar space

many more missions are planned, not just by the us but the eu, russia, japan and, reportedly, china

each mission relies on independent, separate communications; the idea is to develop a network that future missions could metaphorically plug into, rendering the process far simpler

this isn't some boondoggle for programs that won't happen; it's a plan that will benefit all future missions, manned and unmanned

and keep in mind it's an internet protocol ... how much could it possibly cost, for crying out loud?

conservatives are such strange creatures ...


Posting it again because apparently kev missed it.


Shall I post the national debt and teetering on the brink economy that you seem to have missed?


so your concern is for the national debt and the way of expressing it is to grumble about a tiny, hell a microscopic little project that could be immediately cancelled without the slightest influence on the economy or the deficit?


I've expressed it many ways over thousands of threads over the years.
In this particular instance, I see it as wasted money for projects that aren't going to happen.
Canada could always step up and start a space program, why don't you get on that.
mmaverick my steady systematic decline
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We could call it the CSA!
dv
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mmaverick posted:
We could call it the CSA!

That acronym has been... used.

HMCASA has a nice right to it, though.
TOS
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mmaverick posted:
We could call it the CSA!


or asc in french!
mmaverick my steady systematic decline
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now that's just ridiculous.
TOS
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tech challenge: developing an interplanetary internet

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