Electric cars are the future

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maurvir
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Post by maurvir »

obvs wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 10:28 am

Sounds like a sex toy.

You mean it isn't?

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Post by TOS »

sean wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 12:05 pm
TOS wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 10:18 am

introducing the electric hummer

Image

I never liked Hummers. I always found them offensive, ugly, and socially irresponsible.

But... Setting aside the fact that "Electric Hummer" does sound like a sex act, I'd drive the hell out of that. Would need less "bling-ey" wheels, though.

you don't think it's fugly as hell?

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Post by Pariah »

TOS wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 4:53 pm
sean wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 12:05 pm
TOS wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 10:18 am

introducing the electric hummer

Image

I never liked Hummers. I always found them offensive, ugly, and socially irresponsible.

But... Setting aside the fact that "Electric Hummer" does sound like a sex act, I'd drive the hell out of that. Would need less "bling-ey" wheels, though.

you don't think it's fugly as hell?

That thing is ugly as fiddlesticks. Looks like it was made of random parts of other trucks.

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Post by TOS »

only introduced in 2019, porsche's electric taycan is about to pass the 911 in sales

Porsche delivered 9,072 Taycans during the first quarter, trailing the 911 by 61 units, the brand owned by Volkswagen AG said Friday in a statement. The manufacturer unveiled its first purely battery-powered model that’s competing for customers with Tesla Inc.’s Model S in 2019.

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man, if ever there was a sign that internal combustion is dead ...

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Post by maurvir »

TOS wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 10:22 am

only introduced in 2019, porsche's electric taycan is about to pass the 911 in sales

Porsche delivered 9,072 Taycans during the first quarter, trailing the 911 by 61 units, the brand owned by Volkswagen AG said Friday in a statement. The manufacturer unveiled its first purely battery-powered model that’s competing for customers with Tesla Inc.’s Model S in 2019.

Image

man, if ever there was a sign that internal combustion is dead ...

:awe:

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Post by Metacell »

I don't understand why they're still advertising ICE's.

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Post by arkayn »

Metacell wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 10:49 am

I don't understand why they're still advertising ICE's.

Because the infrastructure for an all electric nation is not there.

Gas stations are still on almost every corner.

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Post by juice »

arkayn wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 11:30 am
Metacell wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 10:49 am

I don't understand why they're still advertising ICE's.

Because the infrastructure for an all electric nation is not there.

Gas stations are still on almost every corner.

By contrast, I know of no public electric charging station within 50 miles of my home.

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Post by TOS »

Metacell wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 10:49 am

I don't understand why they're still advertising ICE's.

it's a transition period, they need the income

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Post by maurvir »

That, and there are huge swaths of the country where it is a LONG way to the nearest fast charger.

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Post by TOS »

in five years none of them will be making ice cars in quantity

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Post by obvs »

juice wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 11:38 am
arkayn wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 11:30 am
Metacell wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 10:49 am

I don't understand why they're still advertising ICE's.

Because the infrastructure for an all electric nation is not there.

Gas stations are still on almost every corner.

By contrast, I know of no public electric charging station within 50 miles of my home.

I think it's an economic disparity thing.

The apartment complex where I live has them. One of the grocery stores I go to has them.

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Post by juice »

obvs wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 11:31 am
juice wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 11:38 am
arkayn wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 11:30 am
Metacell wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 10:49 am

I don't understand why they're still advertising ICE's.

Because the infrastructure for an all electric nation is not there.

Gas stations are still on almost every corner.

By contrast, I know of no public electric charging station within 50 miles of my home.

I think it's an economic disparity thing.

The apartment complex where I live has them. One of the grocery stores I go to has them.

It is population density as well. The whole county probably has 15,000 people. You likely have that in two square miles.

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Post by DEyncourt »

Part of the Biden infrastructure plan includes funding to eventually build a half-million charging stations across the US by 2030.

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Post by TOS »

DEyncourt wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 1:12 pm

Part of the Biden infrastructure plan includes funding to eventually build a half-million charging stations across the US by 2030.

that's an extremely smart undertaking

i wish canada would do something like that, especially in rural areas

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Post by Pariah »

I have never seen a charging station with my own eyes. Going against the grain, I don't want to government to build charging stations, if they want to offer incentives that is one thing but I don't want to government building the stations and handing them over to private companies.

While this is not specifically about EVs, I wonder how the driving public will feel about self driving cars that will not break the speed limit. In the USA speed "limits" are treated as a posted minimum speed so going the speed limit would be a huge change in people's expectations of cars.

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Post by obvs »

If every car were going the speed limit and were autonomous and coordinating, people would still get to their destinations earlier even if the cars drove the current speed limits, but there are two really strong likelihoods if all cars were self-driving:

  1. The need for traffic lights would go away, since cars could shuffle through intersections without hitting each other.
  2. Speed limits would be faster, because cars could anticipate the traffic patterns and drive faster more safely. The major limitation with human-driven vehicles is that we can only make guesses about what's behind the first layer of cars around us. Self-driving cars that coordinate could know what's going on with the cars around us, and could anticipate the traffic patterns by looking at data shared by other cars in the vicinity. They could literally know what's happening with a car that in a human's vision would be behind one car which would be behind another car which would be behind another car. Or know what's happening around corners, down the street, coordinate with subways and existing mass transit systems, et cetera.
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Post by maurvir »

The system you describe would be vastly more efficient, as it would effectively become a cross-point switch. However, it would not allow even a single non-automated driver. You would literally have to mandate that everyone hand over control of their cars, which won't happen for a long time.

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Post by Pariah »

obvs wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 6:27 pm

If every car were going the speed limit and were autonomous and coordinating, people would still get to their destinations earlier even if the cars drove the current speed limits, but there are two really strong likelihoods if all cars were self-driving:

  1. The need for traffic lights would go away, since cars could shuffle through intersections without hitting each other.
  2. Speed limits would be faster, because cars could anticipate the traffic patterns and drive faster more safely. The major limitation with human-driven vehicles is that we can only make guesses about what's behind the first layer of cars around us. Self-driving cars that coordinate could know what's going on with the cars around us, and could anticipate the traffic patterns by looking at data shared by other cars in the vicinity. They could literally know what's happening with a car that in a human's vision would be behind one car which would be behind another car which would be behind another car. Or know what's happening around corners, down the street, coordinate with subways and existing mass transit systems, et cetera.

The first generation of SDVs will not have this sort of mesh intelligence. I am not going to argue against SDVs, they are obviously coming but I have yet to have my questions about "last 100 yards" challenges if SDVs won't have any manual over-ride. For one example: You are going to a large concert venue. The overflow parking "lot" is just a mowed field and directions are being given by people in Hi vis waving flash lights. How will that work?

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Post by obvs »

The lack of a manual override will make things drastically safer in the same way not having uncovered car engines makes things drastically safer.

And it will be easier for cars to park on grassy areas without traffic lines.

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Post by DukeofNuke »

Pariah wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:41 pm
obvs wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 6:27 pm

If every car were going the speed limit and were autonomous and coordinating, people would still get to their destinations earlier even if the cars drove the current speed limits, but there are two really strong likelihoods if all cars were self-driving:

  1. The need for traffic lights would go away, since cars could shuffle through intersections without hitting each other.
  2. Speed limits would be faster, because cars could anticipate the traffic patterns and drive faster more safely. The major limitation with human-driven vehicles is that we can only make guesses about what's behind the first layer of cars around us. Self-driving cars that coordinate could know what's going on with the cars around us, and could anticipate the traffic patterns by looking at data shared by other cars in the vicinity. They could literally know what's happening with a car that in a human's vision would be behind one car which would be behind another car which would be behind another car. Or know what's happening around corners, down the street, coordinate with subways and existing mass transit systems, et cetera.

The first generation of SDVs will not have this sort of mesh intelligence. I am not going to argue against SDVs, they are obviously coming but I have yet to have my questions about "last 100 yards" challenges if SDVs won't have any manual over-ride. For one example: You are going to a large concert venue. The overflow parking "lot" is just a mowed field and directions are being given by people in Hi vis waving flash lights. How will that work?

Simple. You don't own the vehicle, you just call it up like an uber. It lets you out at the front door and goes on to it's next fare. A different one comes to pick you up and take you home.

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Post by maurvir »

obvs wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 4:00 am

The lack of a manual override will make things drastically safer in the same way not having uncovered car engines makes things drastically safer.

And it will be easier for cars to park on grassy areas without traffic lines.

What you really want is public transportation where there is no expectation of independent control. Something more akin to a shuttle bus, but with a computer in control of it. These, by necessity, will be owned by either a cab company or the city. Otherwise, there is almost a zero-percent chance of this happening if the private ownership model is retained.

The lack of a manual override will also mean that when the computer fails, you get to scream helplessly as the thing crashes and kills you. Which is why your dream of fully automatic cars won't happen. The very first time that happens, people will say "fiddlesticks that" and go back to regular, non-automated cars and probably run the stupid uncouth individuals who first came up with the system out of town on a pike.

Also, this makes the rash assumption that people are going to stop wanting to travel long distances - and by long distance, I mean to a neighboring city or rural area. I don't see that happening, which means that the system will have to tolerate privately operated vehicles for a long time.

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Post by ukimalefu »

maurvir wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:25 am
obvs wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 4:00 am

The lack of a manual override will make things drastically safer in the same way not having uncovered car engines makes things drastically safer.

And it will be easier for cars to park on grassy areas without traffic lines.

What you really want is public transportation where there is no expectation of independent control. Something more akin to a shuttle bus, but with a computer in control of it. These, by necessity, will be owned by either a cab company or the city. Otherwise, there is almost a zero-percent chance of this happening if the private ownership model is retained.

The lack of a manual override will also mean that when the computer fails, you get to scream helplessly as the thing crashes and kills you. Which is why your dream of fully automatic cars won't happen. The very first time that happens, people will say "fiddlesticks that" and go back to regular, non-automated cars and probably run the stupid uncouth individuals who first came up with the system out of town on a pike.

I hope these robo-cars, if they become a thing, would have fail-safes. If something goes wrong, they would just stop, as safely as possible. Could be annoying, but it would avoid injuries or death.

But I DO WANT the option to be in control of the car. Like automatic for the commute to work, for the highway, but sometimes I'd like to just explore, without a set destination.

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Post by Ribtor »

Las Vegas is showing the way. There's a small tunnel with nothing but Teslas in it. The future is now.

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Post by DukeofNuke »

There are work arounds.
You could drive (or take the train) to the city, get a Johnny-Cab to your destination.
Image
If you need to drive your car on the same roads used by the autonomous cars, it would have a built-in autopilot that would communicate with the other cars.
If you drive an "antique", an app on your phone would alert the cars around you that you are a pariah ;) , and give you extra space and attention.
Non-auto cars would have their own lane, or not be allowed on certain roads at all, at the risk of heavy fines.
Image

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Post by Pariah »

DukeofNuke wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:09 am
Pariah wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:41 pm
obvs wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 6:27 pm

If every car were going the speed limit and were autonomous and coordinating, people would still get to their destinations earlier even if the cars drove the current speed limits, but there are two really strong likelihoods if all cars were self-driving:

  1. The need for traffic lights would go away, since cars could shuffle through intersections without hitting each other.
  2. Speed limits would be faster, because cars could anticipate the traffic patterns and drive faster more safely. The major limitation with human-driven vehicles is that we can only make guesses about what's behind the first layer of cars around us. Self-driving cars that coordinate could know what's going on with the cars around us, and could anticipate the traffic patterns by looking at data shared by other cars in the vicinity. They could literally know what's happening with a car that in a human's vision would be behind one car which would be behind another car which would be behind another car. Or know what's happening around corners, down the street, coordinate with subways and existing mass transit systems, et cetera.

The first generation of SDVs will not have this sort of mesh intelligence. I am not going to argue against SDVs, they are obviously coming but I have yet to have my questions about "last 100 yards" challenges if SDVs won't have any manual over-ride. For one example: You are going to a large concert venue. The overflow parking "lot" is just a mowed field and directions are being given by people in Hi vis waving flash lights. How will that work?

Simple. You don't own the vehicle, you just call it up like an uber. It lets you out at the front door and goes on to it's next fare. A different one comes to pick you up and take you home.

LOL, in your dreams. This is a fantasy like the flying cars Popular Science magazine promised me we would all be driving by now. I don't know how someone can look at American culture and think that most people would give up the convenience of owning a car for the hassle of having to cal a taxi every time they have to make a run up to a store or go out somewhere.
And don't throw logic at me. If logic had anything to do with people's vehicular choices, HUGE pickups and SUVs wouldn't be the most popular vehicles in the country.

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HUGE is now the midsize

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Post by j_tso »

DukeofNuke wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:09 am

Simple. You don't own the vehicle, you just call it up like an uber. It lets you out at the front door and goes on to it's next fare. A different one comes to pick you up and take you home.

That's going to be really far out in the future considering we had to teach people to wash their hands last year.
Think about how clean a regular city bus is, now imagine how clean it would be if no one was watching.

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Post by TOS »

Pariah wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 10:25 am
DukeofNuke wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:09 am
Pariah wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:41 pm
obvs wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 6:27 pm

If every car were going the speed limit and were autonomous and coordinating, people would still get to their destinations earlier even if the cars drove the current speed limits, but there are two really strong likelihoods if all cars were self-driving:

  1. The need for traffic lights would go away, since cars could shuffle through intersections without hitting each other.
  2. Speed limits would be faster, because cars could anticipate the traffic patterns and drive faster more safely. The major limitation with human-driven vehicles is that we can only make guesses about what's behind the first layer of cars around us. Self-driving cars that coordinate could know what's going on with the cars around us, and could anticipate the traffic patterns by looking at data shared by other cars in the vicinity. They could literally know what's happening with a car that in a human's vision would be behind one car which would be behind another car which would be behind another car. Or know what's happening around corners, down the street, coordinate with subways and existing mass transit systems, et cetera.

The first generation of SDVs will not have this sort of mesh intelligence. I am not going to argue against SDVs, they are obviously coming but I have yet to have my questions about "last 100 yards" challenges if SDVs won't have any manual over-ride. For one example: You are going to a large concert venue. The overflow parking "lot" is just a mowed field and directions are being given by people in Hi vis waving flash lights. How will that work?

Simple. You don't own the vehicle, you just call it up like an uber. It lets you out at the front door and goes on to it's next fare. A different one comes to pick you up and take you home.

LOL, in your dreams. This is a fantasy like the flying cars Popular Science magazine promised me we would all be driving by now. I don't know how someone can look at American culture and think that most people would give up the convenience of owning a car for the hassle of having to cal a taxi every time they have to make a run up to a store or go out somewhere.
And don't throw logic at me. If logic had anything to do with people's vehicular choices, HUGE pickups and SUVs wouldn't be the most popular vehicles in the country.

normally i'd agree with you, but the rate at which people are ditching internal combustion for electric makes me think we shouldn't be making assumptions about these things anymore

for instance the dial-a-ride approach wouldn't necessarily work great for a family with no cars, but it might easily take the place of a second car, and there's your suburban market right there; it also would have lots of appeal in urban settings

not a replacement, in other words; just part of the mix

also in terms of finance there are innovations there too ... volvo's subscription model has been a real success, i wouldn't be surprised if other companies star to copy it

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Post by ukimalefu »

DukeofNuke wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 10:17 am

There are work arounds.
You could drive (or take the train) to the city, get a Johnny-Cab to your destination.
Image
If you need to drive your car on the same roads used by the autonomous cars, it would have a built-in autopilot that would communicate with the other cars.
If you drive an "antique", an app on your phone would alert the cars around you that you are a pariah ;) , and give you extra space and attention.
Non-auto cars would have their own lane, or not be allowed on certain roads at all, at the risk of heavy fines.
Image

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Post by Ribtor »

self driving taxis might be made to work if they had defined routes with defined drop areas, or at least no-go locations.

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Post by DukeofNuke »

"I don't know how someone can look at American culture and think that most people would give up the convenience of owning a car for the hassle of having to cal a taxi every time they have to make a run up to a store or go out somewhere."

IDK, people's attitudes change.
Like, there's a resurgence in the public transportation sector thanks to the "Green New Deal Hipsters".
You know, Hyper-loops and high-speed rail 'n stuff.
And trips to the market? That's what delivery drones are for.

And, yeah; I'm thinking far into the future. I don't think anyone here will live to see it.

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Post by maurvir »

I'm almost positive I won't live to see it, and I doubt my daughter will either. Americans are too focused on "personal independence" to ever turn over all of their driving to machines. It's a fun fantasy, but much like flying cars, I seriously doubt we ever see it in the US.

I do believe that I will live to see the day when ICE vehicles become relics and museum show-pieces, though.

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Post by obvs »

maurvir wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:25 am
obvs wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 4:00 am

The lack of a manual override will make things drastically safer in the same way not having uncovered car engines makes things drastically safer.

And it will be easier for cars to park on grassy areas without traffic lines.

What you really want is public transportation where there is no expectation of independent control. Something more akin to a shuttle bus, but with a computer in control of it. These, by necessity, will be owned by either a cab company or the city. Otherwise, there is almost a zero-percent chance of this happening if the private ownership model is retained.

There is no reason to say that people can't own their own vehicle(s), just that the space within the traffic flow is defined by computers which can all communicate.

maurvir wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:25 am

The lack of a manual override will also mean that when the computer fails, you get to scream helplessly as the thing crashes and kills you. Which is why your dream of fully automatic cars won't happen. The very first time that happens, people will say "fiddlesticks that" and go back to regular, non-automated cars and probably run the stupid uncouth individuals who first came up with the system out of town on a pike.

Except that when such a system is put into place, it will immediately put an end to almost all pedestrian fatalities and car accidents.

If one person dies from a machine determining that more people will be saved from it, but if that prevents ~40,000 deaths and the ~6 million accidents that happen every year in the U.S., I think that people will choose that one person dying.

Also, people haven't revolted against fatalities for much of anything(including wars and dangerous products), so the idea they'll revolt when this system will actually revolting in fewer deaths is just wrong.

maurvir wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:25 am

Also, this makes the rash assumption that people are going to stop wanting to travel long distances - and by long distance, I mean to a neighboring city or rural area. I don't see that happening, which means that the system will have to tolerate privately operated vehicles for a long time.

Absolutely not! Nothing about anything I've said indicates that people will stop driving long distances. In fact, being able to go to sleep at night in your car and wake up at your desired destination will be a big boon for travelling long distances.

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Post by maurvir »

Repeat after me "Humans are not rational". People are going ape-human waste over a vaccine that has a very slightly chance of causing a lethal side affect, while ignoring the fact that COVID has vastly more lethal primary affects.

We have also had this discussion before, and as long as people don't trust the computer to put their lives ahead of those around them, they aren't going to trust it. The very first time a computer chooses to save someone outside the vehicle at the expense of the occupant, the whole thing is over. The fact that, overall, death rates will plummet by a few orders of magnitude won't matter because no one wants to be that outlier.

As a technical matter, I agree with you on the benefits. However, as a practical, working system? I don't believe any of us will ever see it.

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Post by obvs »

I am sure we will, for the same reason the world saw the replacement of cars with horses.

The choice isn't going to be there.

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Post by ukimalefu »

computers are already running people's lives

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*cue silly comment: "those aren't even on!"

*cue stupid comment: "those are phones, not computers"

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Post by Pariah »

obvs wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:47 pm

I am sure we will, for the same reason the world saw the replacement of cars with horses.

The choice isn't going to be there.

Actually that is a good example. The Model T came out in 1908, the dawn of the mass produced affordable car. It took until after WWII for horses to disappear from the roads in major cities. So, about 30 years.
The next time you go out for a drive keep and eye out and take not of how common it is to see cars on the road, being used as daily drivers, that are over 30 years old. Manual drive ICE cars are going to have a long tail.

Not even duct tape will fix stupid, but it can muffle the sound.
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obvs
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Post by obvs »

That was because gas was relatively plentiful.

Which, well, let's just say that 30 years from now, that won't exactly be the case, will it?

Or 20 years from now.

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