Babylon 5 fans still arguing DS9 ripped it off are hilarious

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jkahless
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Babylon 5 fans still arguing DS9 ripped it off are hilarious

Post by jkahless »

“Here, look at a list of generic superficial sci fi setting beats and generic storytelling beats. I’m so angry!”

That being said, I’m finally tackling B5. Good world building in the first two episodes, but the directing, acting and editing are b level so far. So far it feels like the CGI, theres a huge amount of ambition there that outstrips technical capability, so there’s plenty of room to grow in a first season. I don’t notice any similarities really beyond “hey, it’s a sci fi show, with aliens, in space.”
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Post by Malkin »

Yeah, 20 years ago I had several friends who thought it was so innovative and so deep. And I mean, I watched it and it was fine, but... I think it helps to be a 20 year old white dude or to have first watched it when you were one.
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Post by dv »

I remember my mom liking B5 at the time because the characters used the bathroom, so it was more "real."

I binged B5 a few years ago. Enjoyed it well enough
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Post by jkahless »

God, this show is just screaming for a remmake from someone who can direct television.
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dv
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Post by dv »

So I looked it up and DS9 came out a year before B5.
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Post by jkahless »

dv posted wrote: So I looked it up and DS9 came out a year before B5.


And was supposed to be a planet based show until they realized location shooting was expensive.
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Re: Babylon 5 fans still arguing DS9 ripped it off are hilar

Post by maurvir »

Also, the 4th and 5th seasons are screwed up because there was a threat of being cancelled. JMS tried to push everything into season 4 for a "proper" conclusion, leaving season 5 feel kind of... strange.

Still, it had a great sense of humor, a lot of quotable lines, and heart. I liked it.
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Post by jkahless »

Ah good, the production values and storming are improving in the second half of season one.
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Post by jkahless »

They’ve even added the use of different types of shots, and the lighting is so much better. Still, if I have one complaint, everything is a little too on the nose. Like the Centauri who have just happened to evolve to style their hair to look like a napoleonic era ships officer hat, and wear napoleonic era naval uniforms. If you’re going to go cheese, commit.

The best description I could give for this show, is it’s got the feel of red dwarf and the BSG reboot set on DS9.

It makes sense the frost season used TOS writers.
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Post by jkahless »

Ok! Season two has come together and it’s a good show! The overall story is interesting and all the production values have gone up, the main problem is still the writing. It just isn’t quite up to the ideas it’s trying to express.
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Post by TOS »

i thought b5 was a really good show, especially when the shadows turned up in a big way

however it never reached the heights of character and storyline of ds9

and honestly b5's budget was pretty low and it shows
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Post by jkahless »

TOS posted wrote: i thought b5 was a really good show, especially when the shadows turned up in a big way

however it never reached the heights of character and storyline of ds9

and honestly b5's budget was pretty low and it shows


The problem isn’t just low budget, with experience, you can make things look a lot better than they did. I’m watching an episode right now, and the quality of the paintwork on some of the long term sets is awful. I know I’m watching on high def, but I can see paint drips in a eyelevel door feature, next to a rag pained door that would give an iridescent metallic sheen at 50 feet, but in closeup, really doesn't.
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Re: Re:

Post by maurvir »

jkahless posted wrote:
TOS posted wrote: i thought b5 was a really good show, especially when the shadows turned up in a big way

however it never reached the heights of character and storyline of ds9

and honestly b5's budget was pretty low and it shows


The problem isn’t just low budget, with experience, you can make things look a lot better than they did. I’m watching an episode right now, and the quality of the paintwork on some of the long term sets is awful. I know I’m watching on high def, but I can see paint drips in a eyelevel door feature, next to a rag pained door that would give an iridescent metallic sheen at 50 feet, but in closeup, really doesn't.


B5 came out when 480i was the standard and 480p was considered "high-end". Seriously, this is the exact same problem pornography faced when people started migrating to HD. I still remember the Internet threads about how people were getting turned off by stretch marks on actresses and other things that you can't see at 480i, but can see very well at 1080p. Now, imagine a close-up at 4k.

The budget was low, and even at that it nearly got cancelled, so I have no doubt the work stopped once the flaws were no longer apparent at the then standard resolutions.
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Re: Re:

Post by jkahless »

maurvir posted wrote:
jkahless posted wrote:
TOS posted wrote: i thought b5 was a really good show, especially when the shadows turned up in a big way

however it never reached the heights of character and storyline of ds9

and honestly b5's budget was pretty low and it shows


The problem isn’t just low budget, with experience, you can make things look a lot better than they did. I’m watching an episode right now, and the quality of the paintwork on some of the long term sets is awful. I know I’m watching on high def, but I can see paint drips in a eyelevel door feature, next to a rag pained door that would give an iridescent metallic sheen at 50 feet, but in closeup, really doesn't.


B5 came out when 480i was the standard and 480p was considered "high-end". Seriously, this is the exact same problem pornography faced when people started migrating to HD. I still remember the Internet threads about how people were getting turned off by stretch marks on actresses and other things that you can't see at 480i, but can see very well at 1080p. Now, imagine a close-up at 4k.

The budget was low, and even at that it nearly got cancelled, so I have no doubt the work stopped once the flaws were no longer apparent at the then standard resolutions.


I should clarify, it's not actually HD, not even 720p.

It's all about knowing what's important, and details like that are what make the show look amateurish.
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Re: Babylon 5 fans still arguing DS9 ripped it off are hilar

Post by Metacell »

I tried to like Babylon Five, I really did. It had Bill Mumy and Walter Koening and all, and I was really into the Amiga Video Toaster effects. But it just never gave me anything really to latch onto. I'm sure I watched at least half of it and I still have no idea what it's about or what happened. I did like the Centauri though....or was it the Minbari? The ones with the funky hairdos.
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Re: Re:

Post by TOS »

maurvir posted wrote:
jkahless posted wrote:
TOS posted wrote: i thought b5 was a really good show, especially when the shadows turned up in a big way

however it never reached the heights of character and storyline of ds9

and honestly b5's budget was pretty low and it shows


The problem isn’t just low budget, with experience, you can make things look a lot better than they did. I’m watching an episode right now, and the quality of the paintwork on some of the long term sets is awful. I know I’m watching on high def, but I can see paint drips in a eyelevel door feature, next to a rag pained door that would give an iridescent metallic sheen at 50 feet, but in closeup, really doesn't.


B5 came out when 480i was the standard and 480p was considered "high-end". Seriously, this is the exact same problem pornography faced when people started migrating to HD. I still remember the Internet threads about how people were getting turned off by stretch marks on actresses and other things that you can't see at 480i, but can see very well at 1080p. Now, imagine a close-up at 4k.

The budget was low, and even at that it nearly got cancelled, so I have no doubt the work stopped once the flaws were no longer apparent at the then standard resolutions.


ds9 was made with the same resolution, on video, and it looks 100000x better than b5
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Re: Babylon 5 fans still arguing DS9 ripped it off are hilar

Post by jkahless »

Metacell posted wrote: I tried to like Babylon Five, I really did. It had Bill Mumy and Walter Koening and all, and I was really into the Amiga Video Toaster effects. But it just never gave me anything really to latch onto. I'm sure I watched at least half of it and I still have no idea what it's about or what happened. I did like the Centauri though....or was it the Minbari? The ones with the funky hairdos.


It's got a great overall story, but the actual storytelling is amateurish, there's rarely a cohesive narrative journey in a single episode, things just happen in order. If it had a good script doctor and an experienced director it could have been a masterpiece.

Take the foreshadowing of Sheridan's jump, I've never before heard the word "fall" used so many times within 43 minutes, or the fact that it took three full seasons to get an establishing shot of the command centre. Turns out it's actually a really nice set with lots of space, but was always shot so dark and closeup we never saw it.

Still, for an amateur effort, it's quite entertaining. There's a few moments of brilliance, especially when one of the better actors gets a chance to chew the scenery, and the CGI is impressive, if not well utilized.
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Post by jkahless »

Huh, I just found out they hired a theatre guy to do the sets. That's why they look like stage sets! THEY ARE!
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Re: Re:

Post by avkills »

TOS posted wrote:
maurvir posted wrote:
jkahless posted wrote:
TOS posted wrote: i thought b5 was a really good show, especially when the shadows turned up in a big way

however it never reached the heights of character and storyline of ds9

and honestly b5's budget was pretty low and it shows


The problem isn’t just low budget, with experience, you can make things look a lot better than they did. I’m watching an episode right now, and the quality of the paintwork on some of the long term sets is awful. I know I’m watching on high def, but I can see paint drips in a eyelevel door feature, next to a rag pained door that would give an iridescent metallic sheen at 50 feet, but in closeup, really doesn't.


B5 came out when 480i was the standard and 480p was considered "high-end". Seriously, this is the exact same problem pornography faced when people started migrating to HD. I still remember the Internet threads about how people were getting turned off by stretch marks on actresses and other things that you can't see at 480i, but can see very well at 1080p. Now, imagine a close-up at 4k.

The budget was low, and even at that it nearly got cancelled, so I have no doubt the work stopped once the flaws were no longer apparent at the then standard resolutions.


ds9 was made with the same resolution, on video, and it looks 100000x better than b5


DS9 I believe was still mostly models and motion control; with very few CGI stuff (wiki says the Defiant was the first CGI element used.) The first 3 Star Wars movies in their original form were all motion control and models.

Babylon 5 was a huge achievement at the time, even though the CGI looks like crap compared to today's standard. Hell the video games right now look 100000x better than Babylon 5.

DS9 also had a lot more money behind it.

B5 Season 1 and Season 2 are fairly slow; but you need to pay attention; because Season 3 is where it picks up.
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Re: Babylon 5 fans still arguing DS9 ripped it off are hilar

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Post by ukimalefu »

actually, all I remember is the BAD CGI, only watched a few episodes, never got into it
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Re: Babylon 5 fans still arguing DS9 ripped it off are hilar

Post by maurvir »

ukimalefu posted wrote: Image


The show was worth it just for Ivanova and Garibaldi. :up:
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Post by jkahless »

Oh great. Another “resisting torture is a moral skill!” blatherskite episode. “All you have to do is try!” fiddlesticks that.

I gotta go watch Chain of Command again to wash the taste out of my mouth. IMHO, the gold standard television examination of torture. Picard broke in the first act, during the commercial break, they didn’t even try to pretend he could stay quiet.

The true power of that episode hinges on that he was down to his very last shred of humanity, and as he explained in the denouement, even his reality had broken. He actually saw 5 lights. Only escape saved him. When you get the psychology right... I’m getting chills just thinking about it.
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Post by jkahless »

Alright, finally done the series. In general, good overall story, but the actual writing was shlock, and the actors never picked up the slack except in Londo and G'Kar. Their scenes always had me perking up, but the humans save Garibaldi were all pretty much the same character, even Garibaldi just became more of a plot tool later on. Thank God he hit the sauce again.

It's just desperate for a reboot.
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Post by TOS »

i loved when garabaldi and others came back as simulations and garabaldi stick fiddled up the space nazis but good

i also liked when they showed the far distant human future when the sun dies
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Post by jkahless »

TOS posted wrote: i loved when garabaldi and others came back as simulations and garabaldi stick fiddled up the space nazis but good

i also liked when they showed the far distant human future when the sun dies


Those were terrific moments! "oh, humanity is evil now? well fiddlesticks em."

I loved the scope and ambition of the show. Makes me want to check out Sense8 and see how JMS matured as a filmmaker.
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Post by jkahless »

Oh my god. Working my way through the movies, and got the Ranger one, with the hero ship that fires it’s weapons by a member of the crew who gets floats in virtual reality, and kicks and punches at the incoming ships.

This is the FUNNIEST human waste.
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Post by Pariah »

I watched B5 and enjoyed it but it was always frustrating. All thru it's run I always had the feeling that it could be really good, like almost there but never quite there.
Basically gave me SciFi blue balls. B5 had a lot of promise that it never delivered on.
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Re: Babylon 5 fans still arguing DS9 ripped it off are hilar

Post by avkills »

I would be up for a B5 re-boot, but mostly just because the current state of CGI could really make those Shadows scary as human waste.
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Re: Babylon 5 fans still arguing DS9 ripped it off are hilar

Post by dv »

avkills posted wrote: I would be up for a B5 re-boot, but mostly just because the current state of CGI could really make those Shadows scary as human waste.


I like to figure that Xenomorphs are actually like feral Shadows or something.
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