So why didn't this happen in the Star Wars universe?

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I have not seen "Rogue One" so I do not know how well this might fit with THAT movie.

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The time is within a year before "A New Hope."

Emperor Palpatine is slumbering in his private chambers when he abruptly awakens. "The Force?" he exclaims with some surprise. Reaching for his intercom he shouts, "Get me Va...ah, you're here," as Darth Vader enters.

"Yes, Sire. I have sensed it too."

"Very powerful BUT very unformed. Raw, almost deliciously so," the Emperor mumbles. Again he shouts into his intercom, "Get me a list of all the ships which have entered local space over the past 5 minutes! Including the PRECISE time of their arrivals!" He looks at a clock and notes the time.

"Yes, sir, right away", a voice answers. In few minutes a servant knocks on the door, then announces in a trembling voice when allowed to enter: "Your list, sir. Are there any additional orders?"

"No, go away," the Emperor grumbles as the servant quickly vacates. Reading over the list, he points at one entry then shouts into his intercom: "Get me a list of all the passengers and crew aboard the royal yacht from Alderaan.

After considering this new list for a minute, the Emperor says, "Vader, check the crew and this Princess Leia Organa--she's new to the Senate. I have met everyone else aboard...although I'm sure that you WILL know who I want."

"Yes, Sire."

-----

Of course the above didn't happen because when we were first introduced to the Star Wars universe no one--aside from George Lucas AND maybe PROBABLY not even him at the time--had any clear idea of the mechanics of The Force.

But this--and MANY other complications involving The Force--should have happened.
Pithecanthropus Roast Master
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Maybe you should see Rogue One.
juice Inadvertently correct
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DEyn, why didn't you write the dialog for the prequels?
juice Inadvertently correct
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Also, you should see Rogue One.
In Rogue One is there some sort of hand-waving explanation that without training from the Jedi or the Emperor (for the dark side) that one's Force is sufficiently "diffuse" that it can escape notice and/or cannot be (easily?) detected over distance?

That could explain how Leia avoided becoming involved with the Emperor in my prequel sketch above, but how about Obi-Wan Kenobi aboard the Millennium Falcon in "A New Hope"? Shouldn't he and Vader sensed each other immediately when the Millennium Falcon used hyperdrive into (the late) Alderaan space?

Perhaps Kenobi was still using some sort of diffusion techinique in order to avoid anyone from spotting him while living on Tatooine, but shouldn't he have immediately spotted Vader aboard the Death Star? Of course that would have alerted Kenobi so that he could have warned Han Solo to not get near the Death Star so the Millennium Falcon could have gotten away and they would not have been able to rescue Leia along with R2D2 and thus ending the story, but it could have happened.

Or maybe that diffusion technique works both ways so while Kenobi was using it he could not detect Vader? I would accept that.

If distance is at least part of that explanation, then recall that Vader and Leia were in the same hallway or room aboard the Death Star in "A New Hope" and in the floating city near the end of "The Empire Strikes Back".

Even with these attempts to explain such problems, the REAL problem is that The Force is just one more thing that conveniently varies upon the necessities of the plot.
TOS
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plot holes? in my star wars? it's more likely than you think
Alternatively,

Star Destroyer operator: "Lord Vader, the long range midoclorian detector shows activity on Tatooine."
macnuke Afar
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OR....

Hey Vader.. you remember that girl you knocked up back when you had all of your legs ?
dv
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macnuke posted:
OR....

Hey Vader.. you remember that girl you knocked up back -

Image




FTFY.
Mustapha Mond Daring to be stupid
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dv posted:
macnuke posted:
OR....

Hey Vader.. you remember that girl you knocked up back -

Image




FTFY.


:lol:
macnuke Afar
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Pithecanthropus posted:
Maybe you should see Rogue One.

juice posted:
Also, you should see Rogue One.

OK, I have finally seen "Rogue One" and...what? There is nothing in the plot of that movie which changes the possibility of my original scenario here of Emperor Palpatine being able to co-opt Princess Leia at some point previous to "A New Hope".

Another thing: isn't there the sense in "A New Hope" that Leia was older than Luke Skywalker, perhaps by 5 or more years? While at the start of the movie Luke was considering his prospects of being accepted into the Imperial Academy to be trained as an Imperial TIE fighter pilot (so he was the equivalent to an Earthling 17-year-old), Leia already was a member of the Imperial Senate. Yes, rank hath its privileges (even for adoptees), but would a planet consider sending even an astoundingly brilliant 17-year-old as its representative in the Imperial Senate?

Perhaps originally George Lucas had this idea above--maybe having Anakin and Amidala spend considerably more family time together at least with Leia--but when Star Wars I-III were written Lucas realized that having Luke and Leia be twins torn away from their parents was a more dramatic storyline.

BTW: the movie "Rogue One" was...um, OK. Like most of Star Wars: not very good but not terribly awful. I appreciated the movie's overall theme of self-sacrifice by the "good guys", especially in contrast to the blatant wastefulness of the Empire which was willing to completely sacrifice its base just so it could keep the Death Star a secret from the Imperial Senate for a tiny bit longer. And I sighed just a bit just to watch the faux Carrie Fisher for her one word at the end.
ukimalefu Rebel? resistance? why not both?
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Rogue One is GREAT. ok, or, I liked it A LOT.

Quote:
OK, I have finally seen "Rogue One" and...what? There is nothing in the plot of that movie which changes the possibility of my original scenario here of Emperor Palpatine being able to co-opt Princess Leia at some point previous to "A New Hope".


huh? what would there be anything about Leia? rogue one shows the early rebellion, not much more. Oh and it does show people thought Jedis where part of a long gone ancient religion.

By the way, I believe Chirrut was force sensitive and would have been a Jedi if he had had a Master to train him.

Quote:
Emperor Palpatine being able to co-opt Princess Leia


Well, I guess it could have happened, but a moisture farmer from a desert planet is easier to get to than a princess. But, it just wasn't written that way?. AND, most importantly, the canon about how the force is sensed is not clear, at least to me. Palpatine and Vader don't simply sense Luke and Leia at all times anywhere. I could be wrong, but I believe that, in the accepted canon, the force can only be sensed when used. When the Skywalker twins were kids, the Emperor and Vader didn't know, hiding them worked. Then, after Obi Wan and Luke show up at the Death Stars, they're like, "whoa, what was that!?" and figure it out.
Metacell Chocolate Brahma
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Luke and Leia weren't intended to be brother and sister when George Lucas wrote Star Wars.
And why didn't Vader remember hist trusty droids Artoo and 3PO?

I figure maybe when he became Darth Vader he pushed all his past self out of his mind, so he had a willful subconscious blind spot. Remember he didn't even notice Luke until he destroyed the Death Star.
Metacell Chocolate Brahma
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DEyncourt posted:
Another thing: isn't there the sense in "A New Hope" that Leia was older than Luke Skywalker, perhaps by 5 or more years? While at the start of the movie Luke was considering his prospects of being accepted into the Imperial Academy to be trained as an Imperial TIE fighter pilot (so he was the equivalent to an Earthling 17-year-old), Leia already was a member of the Imperial Senate. Yes, rank hath its privileges (even for adoptees), but would a planet consider sending even an astoundingly brilliant 17-year-old as its representative in the Imperial Senate?

Queen Amidala was also supposed to be 17 when she joined (Mark Hamill and Carrie Fisher were both 19-20 when they started filming Star Wars). It's all supposed to be like some medeival fairy-tale, it just doesn't hold up if you examine it for realism. Like how come 20 years go by and its all suddenly ancient legends? Nobody can remember 20 years back in this universe?
ukimalefu Rebel? resistance? why not both?
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Metacell posted:

And why didn't Vader remember hist trusty droids Artoo and 3PO?

I figure maybe when he became Darth Vader he pushed all his past self out of his mind, so he had a willful subconscious blind spot. Remember he didn't even notice Luke until he destroyed the Death Star.


Dark side brainwash? just blocked out from trauma?
Metacell Chocolate Brahma
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ukimalefu posted:
Metacell posted:

And why didn't Vader remember hist trusty droids Artoo and 3PO?

I figure maybe when he became Darth Vader he pushed all his past self out of his mind, so he had a willful subconscious blind spot. Remember he didn't even notice Luke until he destroyed the Death Star.


Dark side brainwash? just blocked out from trauma?

Sure...like maybe if he'd just turned his peaceful attention to people and events of his past, he might have had stronger senses for them, but he just simply avoided it. He couldn't (or at least didn't) force talk with Luke until after they had been in close proximity.
I am pretty sure Vader never actually interacts with either of the droids at any point. The closest I can think of is a dismembered 3PO on Chewie’s back in Empire, and Vader was more focussed on Han. And there are a lot of protocol droids and astromech droids around in any case.
ukimalefu posted:
Rogue One is GREAT. ok, or, I liked it A LOT.

Quote:
OK, I have finally seen "Rogue One" and...what? There is nothing in the plot of that movie which changes the possibility of my original scenario here of Emperor Palpatine being able to co-opt Princess Leia at some point previous to "A New Hope".


huh? what would there be anything about Leia? rogue one shows the early rebellion, not much more. Oh and it does show people thought Jedis where part of a long gone ancient religion.

[snip]

But please recall that MY initial response was to others saying that I should see Rogue One. I fully agree with you: even including Leia's appearance at the end of Rogue One and the entire movie plot explaining how the plans of the Death Star got into her hands, how SHOULD my viewing Rogue One have changed my scenario beginning this string?
Quote:
Quote:
Emperor Palpatine being able to co-opt Princess Leia


Well, I guess it could have happened, but a moisture farmer from a desert planet is easier to get to than a princess. But, it just wasn't written that way?. AND, most importantly, the canon about how the force is sensed is not clear, at least to me. Palpatine and Vader don't simply sense Luke and Leia at all times anywhere. I could be wrong, but I believe that, in the accepted canon, the force can only be sensed when used. When the Skywalker twins were kids, the Emperor and Vader didn't know, hiding them worked. Then, after Obi Wan and Luke show up at the Death Stars, they're like, "whoa, what was that!?" and figure it out.

Really? Under what circumstances would the adopted son of a moisture farmer gain the attention of the emperor of the galaxy? And how different that would be for Imperial Senator Leia Organa?

Yeah, yeah: how the Force works alters depending upon circumstances. Frankly a better writer would have prepared an outline which would have sketched out how the Force worked and why it works in these situations but not in those AND STUCK TO THAT. Instead we get stuff like the clip above vs. "Search your feelings! You KNOW it to be true!"

BTW: I have NEVER seen "SW III: Revenge of the Sith" aside from very short bits while channel-surfing mostly because I simply HATED "SW II: Attack of the Clones" though that hatred had its seed in "SW I: the Phantom Menace". The entire midi-chlorian sub-story in the prequel trio of movies was just SO VERY BAD.
DEyncourt posted:
[snip]
The entire midi-chlorian sub-story in the prequel trio of movies was just SO VERY BAD.

I think this is a repetition of something I wrote about here on Macstack before, but below is a fuller explanation of what I mean by this statement above:

Recall that at the end of "A New Hope" (AND before the other two movies in the chronologically "second" trio of movies) the viewer is left with this hopeful viewpoint: a nondescript adopted son of a (moisture) farmer becomes the hero of the day by launching the ONE SHOT that was required to take out the gargantuan menace of the Death Star. Yes, the story emerges of that child being the son of a celebrated hero of some reputation of his own, but the fact that the son was adopted as a baby by his uncle emphasizes the point that the son more-or-less on his own (though with considerable help from his friends) became that hero. What boy or girl--c'mon, let's be serious: that first Star Wars movie emerged from the movie serials of the 1930's and 1940's which had the faithful girlfriends serving as only cheerleaders for the MALE heroes. To give George Lucas his due: in more recent movies he has placed many women in positions of power and responsibility and influence--watching "A New Hope" would NOT have dreamed of becoming that one person MAN upon whom the fate of everything hinges?

Unfortunately THAT vision became rather clouded in the next two movies (there was a SECOND Death Star that was already under construction when the first one was destroyed?), but it was the chronogically "first" trio of movies with midi-chlorians that renders moot ALL such aspirational dreams: the entire GALAXY is just a machine which cumulatively was just an effort "to bring balance to The Force" by having first Anakin fall to the Dark Side and commit his nearly complete genocide of the Jedi, but also having him sire Leia and Luke with Amidala to again re-"balance The Force" in the aftermath? You had dreams of becoming that one hero of "A New Hope"? What's in your wallet?

I must wonder is if anyone has ever told Lucas about this problem, or perhaps he is in such a position that no one can question his decisions without getting fired.
Metacell Chocolate Brahma
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Midi-chlorians never bothered me...it's not even a story, its just a scene with a couple of lines. All it's saying is that the living energy force of the universe affects things organically throughout nature. The Jedi are also scientists and have the technology to measure these things. And...big deal?
Metacell posted:
Midi-chlorians never bothered me...it's not even a story, its just a scene with a couple of lines. All it's saying is that the living energy force of the universe affects things organically throughout nature. The Jedi are also scientists and have the technology to measure these things. And...big deal?

Then you were not paying enough attention. Midi-chlorians paid a key role in at least SW I and II (maybe in III as well? I simply don't know). In fact had Lucas retained control over the Star Wars universe, he had this simply horrendous vision for the final trilogy of SW VII through IX in which there were these microscopic creatures which lived inside the bodies of all of the characters and feed off The Force. The midi-chlorians were the aftereffect of these creatures exercising their control over The Force. At least part of the point-of-view within these movies would be set in that microscopic world.

Fortunately Disney (which wrested control of LucasFilm away from George Lucas) apparently decided that "we will not speak about such ever again", so the more recent movies (including the prequels like Rogue One) reflect this.
Metacell Chocolate Brahma
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Yeah I know...midichlorians didn't play a key role in anything, they were just a thing. I'm not sure Lucas idea would have been worse...I'll have to see the next movie. With Abrams directing again, it has the potential to be awful.
You can choose to totally ignore the midi-chlorian story, but the theme through SW I , II and III was:
DEyncourt posted:
[snip]

the entire GALAXY is just a machine which cumulatively was just an effort "to bring balance to The Force" by having first Anakin fall to the Dark Side and commit his nearly complete genocide of the Jedi, but also having him sire Leia and Luke with Amidala to again re-"balance The Force" in the aftermath

[snip]

Frankly all aspirations invoked by the destruction of the Death Star at the end of "A New Hope" be damned because YOU as an individual do not matter at all without the power of The Force.
Metacell Chocolate Brahma
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Yeah...you really have to dig hard to decide that's what the story's about. It's like saying Lord of the Rings was about the reckoning between Morgoth and the Valar...it really just, that's just some legendary hokum for telling the story. I just enjoy the spaceships and lightsaber battles.
Really? That layer in Lucas' Star Wars is only skin-deep.
Metacell Chocolate Brahma
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DEyncourt posted:
Really? That layer in Lucas' Star Wars is only skin-deep.

I don't look for answers from Star Wars, I just enjoy the ride.
Séamas Honorary Consul General
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The Midi-chlorians thing just seemed like a strained idea to me, but no worse than the strong suggestion that Darth Vader was the result of some spontaneous, christ-like pregnancy courtesy of the supernatural.
ukimalefu Rebel? resistance? why not both?
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Séamas posted:
The Midi-chlorians thing just seemed like a strained idea to me, but no worse than the strong suggestion that Darth Vader was the result of some spontaneous, christ-like pregnancy courtesy of the supernatural.


His mother just never wanted to say who was the father. Probably Palpatine.
maurvir Steamed meat popsicle
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ukimalefu posted:
Séamas posted:
The Midi-chlorians thing just seemed like a strained idea to me, but no worse than the strong suggestion that Darth Vader was the result of some spontaneous, christ-like pregnancy courtesy of the supernatural.


His mother just never wanted to say who was the father. Probably Palpatine.


Yeah, I never got the vibe that Vader was supernaturally created, just that his parentage was somewhat unknown. I also thought the midi-chlorian thing was stupid, and preferred the vagueness of "the force". It felt a bit too much like pseudo-scientific wankery, which is saying a lot given how much of that comprises Star Wars as it is.
ukimalefu Rebel? resistance? why not both?
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maurvir posted:
ukimalefu posted:
Séamas posted:
The Midi-chlorians thing just seemed like a strained idea to me, but no worse than the strong suggestion that Darth Vader was the result of some spontaneous, christ-like pregnancy courtesy of the supernatural.


His mother just never wanted to say who was the father. Probably Palpatine.


Yeah, I never got the vibe that Vader was supernaturally created, just that his parentage was somewhat unknown. I also thought the midi-chlorian thing was stupid, and preferred the vagueness of "the force". It felt a bit too much like pseudo-scientific wankery, which is saying a lot given how much of that comprises Star Wars as it is.


Uhm, I personally, midi-chlorians or not, never believed just anybody could be a Jedi. Since the original movies, before midichlorians, being "strong with the force" was a thing not everybody had.

And who cares? I always wanted to be Han Solo, not Luke :p
Metacell posted:
DEyncourt posted:
Really? That layer in Lucas' Star Wars is only skin-deep.

I don't look for answers from Star Wars, I just enjoy the ride.

Really? So what were:
Metacell posted:
[ spoiler]Luke and Leia weren't intended to be brother and sister when George Lucas wrote Star Wars.[/spoiler]
And why didn't Vader remember hist trusty droids Artoo and 3PO?

I figure maybe when he became Darth Vader he pushed all his past self out of his mind, so he had a willful subconscious blind spot. Remember he didn't even notice Luke until he destroyed the Death Star.

[I deliberately "ruined' the spoiler because was that even necessariy for ANY reason?]

and
Metacell posted:
DEyncourt posted:
Another thing: isn't there the sense in "A New Hope" that Leia was older than Luke Skywalker, perhaps by 5 or more years? While at the start of the movie Luke was considering his prospects of being accepted into the Imperial Academy to be trained as an Imperial TIE fighter pilot (so he was the equivalent to an Earthling 17-year-old), Leia already was a member of the Imperial Senate. Yes, rank hath its privileges (even for adoptees), but would a planet consider sending even an astoundingly brilliant 17-year-old as its representative in the Imperial Senate?

Queen Amidala was also supposed to be 17 when she joined (Mark Hamill and Carrie Fisher were both 19-20 when they started filming Star Wars). It's all supposed to be like some medeival fairy-tale, it just doesn't hold up if you examine it for realism. Like how come 20 years go by and its all suddenly ancient legends? Nobody can remember 20 years back in this universe?

??? You seemed to have been looking for answers when writing those responses.

My thinking:

That thing about Luke and Leia possibly NOT being brother and sister is in part spoiled by how George Lucas had claimed that the ENTIRE Star Wars story--up to and including his awful versions for SW VII-IX as I described before--came to him even before he wrote the script for "A New Hope". Obviously not every precise detail but at least the overall storylines. I would contend that Luke and Leia being related probably was a major point ("No, there is another") that Lucas failed to develop beyond this line being spoken although perhaps not necessarily them being twins.

On how Darth Vader fails to recognize R2-D2 and C3PO, I largely agree. It simply could be explained that given the overwhelming seriousness of The Force (especially its Dark Side) that Anakin just left behind his previous interest in droids as one of his "childish things."

And I also agree with the nonsensical oddness of Luke Skywalker and Darth Vader being relegated to "ancient legends" within the "real" final trilogy of movies (as opposed to Lucas' original version), but then I guess in particular I am not part of tha key demographic which Disney wants to hold onto with Star Wars given the supposed millennial thinking of "if it happened before I was born then it is ancient history". Personally I agree with the sentiment of "those who forget history are doomed to repeat it".
Séamas Honorary Consul General
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maurvir posted:
ukimalefu posted:
Séamas posted:
The Midi-chlorians thing just seemed like a strained idea to me, but no worse than the strong suggestion that Darth Vader was the result of some spontaneous, christ-like pregnancy courtesy of the supernatural.


His mother just never wanted to say who was the father. Probably Palpatine.


Yeah, I never got the vibe that Vader was supernaturally created, just that his parentage was somewhat unknown.


Not the parentage, but how the pregnancy came into being in its entirety.
According to Anakin's mother Shmi, there was no father- she simply woke up pregnant one day.
This was 100% an effort to draw parallels to the christian messiah. Lucas famously went to the well of comparative religion for his inspiration. This one was I thought ill-considered.
Someone got a copy of the original script for "Revenge of the Sith" and quoted from it saying that a previous Dark Lord named Darth Plagueis tells Anakin that he had violated the previous conventions for handling The Force and manipulated it to impregnate Anakin's mother so that in some senses Plagueis is Anakin's father.

Don't recall the above scene from that movie? Well, that videomaker DOES admit that he is quoting from a sizable segment of the script that was not in the FINAL script for "Sith" and thus never got filmed. I guess in his defense he is quoting from a VERSION of Star Wars canon written by Lucas but a version that Lucas himself omitted, so :shrug:

Personally I can only recall the questions that Anakin had for his mother in a scene from "The Phantom Menace", so I accounted her vague "explanation" as the embarrassment of a mother simply avoiding any sort of truthful explanation of those circumstances to her still too young son ("You know that music cantina in Mos Eisley? Well, your father--he was a devilishly charming gent--walked up to me and asked me to dance, so one thing led to another and...well, eventually you too"). Up to this string I had never heard about any "spritual" interpretation for Anakin's conception.
TOS
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so there's been a "leak" from the upcoming star wars movie, and it claims that rey is actually palpatine's granddaughter

just thought that might be relevant to the discussion
Metacell Chocolate Brahma
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Man, some of you just take Star Wars too seriously. And I'm speaking as someone who was once tied town in leather restraints at Stanford Hospital just for thinking he was Luke Skywalker.
ukimalefu Rebel? resistance? why not both?
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Since we're down the Sarlacc hole...

Quote:
Midi-chlorians were intelligent microscopic life forms that lived symbiotically inside the cells of all living things.


Every living things has midchlorians

Quote:
When present in sufficient numbers, they could allow their host to detect the pervasive energy field known as the Force.


Midichlorians don't give you the force, but you need enough of them to detect it.

Quote:
The highest known midi-chlorian count—over 20,000 per cell—belonged to the Jedi
Anakin Skywalker
, who was believed to have been conceived by the midi-chlorians.[5]


"Believed", they're not sure, not certain, matter of faith, "just a theory" :p

Quote:
When not forbidden, studies of midi-chlorians occurred among those who could master the Force and those who could not. While medical teams worked to understand the relationship between midi-chlorians and the Force, Jedi healers performed their own studies of the organisms. Even more esoteric studies were conducted by the Dark Lord of the Sith Darth Plagueis, who discovered a way to manipulate the midi-chlorians to create new life.


Really? it doesn't say "to create Anakin", but still :roll:

Quote:
The magnitude of the midi-chlorian count served as a measure of one's potential in the Force,[12] though there were other inheritable characteristics that could influence Force ability as well.[13] Indeed, though Force ability often meant a high midi-chlorian count, it was not always the case.


https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Midi-chlorian/Legends

Look at the end of that URL, it says "LEGENDS".

I stopped reading there, I don't really care much about midichlorians, I enjoy all things star wars.
Metacell Chocolate Brahma
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Isn't Darth Plagueis the one who supposedly figured out how to bring people back from death?
TOS posted:
so there's been a "leak" from the upcoming star wars movie, and it claims that rey is actually palpatine's granddaughter

just thought that might be relevant to the discussion

Unlike other places (<ahem> Star Trek), the obsession of Star Wars fans over who is related to whom is understandable because within this universe without your ancestral line you are NOTHING.

Sort of ironic considering how so many key characters--Luke, Leia, Anakin, Rey--had "mysterious" backgrounds (well, before their details got/get revealed).
It seems like some writer found out about the origins of mitochondria and thought it would be a great bit to add to their story to relate fantasy to science. They do in fact give us "force" inasmuch as they are involved in energy production within the cell. So there's that.
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So why didn't this happen in the Star Wars universe?