Game of F'ing Thrones: the F'ing Show

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Post by DukeofNuke »

I just want to say that I was very satisfied with the ending. [spoiler]I gasped when Jon killed Danni (even though I was kinda expecting it), I cheered when Drogon melted the Iron Throne, and I got a lump in my throat when Jon and Ghost were reunited.[/spoiler]
But then, I had a question ...
[spoiler]Where did the Dothraki go?
I expected them to tear up hell when their beloved Khaleesi was murdered.
The Unsullied have dicipline, so they're not going to do anything unless they're told to, but the horse cavalry? They actually listened to Grey Worm with Dani dead?
And I guess we're to assume they just said, "Ok boys, party's over. Time to go home." and boarded ships for Dothrakiville with nothing to show for it?[/spoiler]
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Post by ukimalefu »

They can't show everything, because it was the last episode. Just assume everything was figured out somehow. Tyrion, the people whisperer, probably said something and convinced everybody again.

[spoiler]Yes, I do believe the unsullied would actually listen to Grey Worm, he was put in charge of the army in front of everybody. He was pretty much their leader for a while[/spoiler]

Or, go sign the petition asking for a remake of the whole 8th season. There's already over 1 million signatures!
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apparently weeks went by after dany was killed - the raki got hustled off in the meantime
Aw, he's no fun, he fell right over.

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Post by DEyncourt »

DukeofNuke wrote: I just want to say that I was very satisfied with the ending.

Really? While there were SOME points (like how the possible futures of the remaining Starks were told at the end) that I KINDA liked, overall the final episode was severely disappointing very likely simply because GRR Martin was not the writer.
[snip]
[spoiler]I cheered when Drogon melted the Iron Throne.[/spoiler]
[snip]

Let me ask you: [spoiler]while there are plenty of HUMAN reasons for wanting to destroy the Iron Throne, what was the motivation for DROGON? A friend of mine argued that perhaps Daenerys and Drogon had a psychic link which--given Daeynerys' death--Drogon had strongly associated the Throne with Daenerys' motivation for conquering Westeros, so when confronted with the actual item compelled Drogon to destroy it. But I'm afraid that is reading a lot into their human-dragon relationship which was NEVER previously established. Just one scene in which Daenerys established such a link like her explaining: "I only say 'Dracarys' so that the PEOPLE around me know that -I- AM commanding my dragons to burn something" could have been enough.

So how intelligent were the dragons? Do the dragons actually understand High Valerian? Well, no. There is a scene in both the books and the TV series in which Daenerys explained to Jorah that SHE chose "Dracarys" (the High Valerian term for "dragonfire") specifically so that not very many people would know how to say it, sort of like how dogs do learn to obey their masters by not going after that thrown stick until after said masters actually command them with "fetch".

If anything it appears that the dragons' level of intelligence is something like that of a horse. It might APPEAR to an observer that a horse is almost psychically obeying his rider's commands when actually there are more subtle cues that the rider is giving to his horse via the reins, the stirrup, positioning and practice, practice, practice that provides his control over his horse, so something similar (though without the mechanisms) could explain what Daenerys did to command Drogon.[/spoiler]
But then, I had a question ...
[spoiler]Where did the Dothraki go?[/spoiler]
[snip]

Actually, [spoiler]where did they come from? At the Battle for Winterfell it was pretty clear that a large portion if not ALL of the Dothraki died during their initial encounter with the Winter King's forces given how completely their enchanted (by the red priestess) arakhs winked out of existence following the Dothraki charge into those forces. To be sure, there didn't appear to be many riding around following the Battle for King's Landing but it was surprising to me that there were ANY Dothraki riders at all.[/spoiler]

Beyond those, [spoiler]Grand Maester Samwell? While scarcely explained in the TV series, in the books GRR Martin spent paragraphs explaining how a maester could spend years learning a specific craft such as medicine or metallurgy, with only SOME maesters going on to learn a specific list of several crafts to eventually earn the title of grand maester.

Perhaps it could have been explained that the representative from the Citadel (where the maesters have their library) is traditionally given the title "Grand Maester" when seated on the high council, but given how Samwell respected the hierarchy of learning of the Citadel I think that the time could have been devoted to Samwell deferring by saying something like: "I do not like that title because -I- do not deserve it. Perhaps in public you must refer to me as 'Grand Maester Samwell', but in the privacy of the council please just call me 'Sam'."[/spoiler]

I could go on.
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Post by ukimalefu »

I don't think [spoiler]the dragon intentionally wanted to destroy the throne, it was just upset, and for a moment it seemed like it did want to kill jon snow, but contained itself and just spat the fire to the side, and the throne happened to be there[/spoiler]

But I could be wrong.

Also, I expected Daenerys to [spoiler]order to collect all the fallen swords around the city to make the throne bigger, but that didn't happen[/spoiler]

But in the end, GRR Martin wasn't around, and the producers just told the writers they had to finish the thing.

-

By the way, I saw a rumor about GRR Martin teaming up with Hideo Kojima for an open world video game. So... next GoT book before 2025?... 2030? Maybe I'll be able to read the books before the next one comes out.
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Post by DukeofNuke »

I could go on.


Oh Please, don't hold back!
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Post by DukeofNuke »

I think:
Dragons are smarter than horses. MUCH smarter.
I go with the psy-link theory, and more of a mind meld than a "go left, shoot fire" thing.
Drogon knew that the Iron Throne was Dani's primary motivation, and he blamed it for all the troubles and problems her and his siblings have had to endure. He knew exactly what he was doing. Also why he didn't kill Jon; he understood that Dani would not have wanted him to, and maybe he even agreed that the destruction of Kings Landing was a step too far, but he couldn't do anything about it because he was unable to NOT follow Dani's orders when she was on his back, but he was capable of more independent thinking when the link was not connected.
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Post by DukeofNuke »

Besides, contemplating Drogons motivations is going down that same old rabbit hole ...
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Post by TOS »

do we really need spoiler tags at this point?

also ... got memes!

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Post by jkahless »

ukimalefu wrote: I don't think [spoiler]the dragon intentionally wanted to destroy the throne, it was just upset, and for a moment it seemed like it did want to kill jon snow, but contained itself and just spat the fire to the side, and the throne happened to be there[/spoiler]

But I could be wrong.


Yup. Nothing we've seen elevates dragon intelligence above animal level.
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Post by DEyncourt »

DukeofNuke wrote:
I could go on.


Oh Please, don't hold back!

[spoiler]That same friend who made the supposition of some sort of psychic link between Daenerys and Drogon VERY BITTERLY complained about the decision made at that meeting by the remaining elites to choose Bran as the new king of Westeros. Paraphrasing: "You mean to tell me that Sansa rejected HER OWN BROTHER as king, choosing to rule as Queen of the North independent of the (formerly) Seven Kingdoms (possibly fulfilling some childhood fantasy of becoming an independent ruler), and that at least some of the other people would have followed suit and walked away from a kingdom being led by someone they had met only days or maybe weeks before? C'mon, at least the representative of Dorne should have walked if only to retain their status as a FORMER principality within the Seven Kingdoms and declared a new Kingdom of Dorne."

While I had been reluctant to disagree while he voiced the above, later I realized that that my reluctance was in part due to my knowing the story behind Bran and how Tyrion could effectively argue his points for having Bran as king given that knowledge. Seeing their situation being unsupported by that considerable backhistory, perhaps SOME of those leaders EVENTUALLY could have been persuaded after more of Bran's story was filled in, but I find myself agreeing with him.[/spoiler]

-----

[spoiler]I wonder how Arya was able to find a crew for her voyage westward. In OUR own history there were likely several people who attempted the voyage westward across the Atlantic but of course we never had heard of them because they simply never came back, so their names were all but completely forgetten; so likewise in Westeros there probably are dockside tales about, say, "Edmure the Lost" who had dreamed of reaching the legendary cities of Leng and Carcosa in the far east of Essos, but after he set sail westward was never heard from again. Perhaps Arya could find enough desperate sailors or condemned prisoners to crew her ship, but unless she got extremely lucky by happening upon isolated islands in the western sea to help resupply her crew with fresh water and foodstuffs (beyond capturing rainwater and fishing), chances are her name just will become the latest version of "Arya the Lost".[/spoiler]

-----

There are other ideas still percolating.
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Post by ukimalefu »

The whole series was full of unexpected things, but people are complaining now?

whaaaaa :whaa: what I wanted to happen didn't happen! :whaa:
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Post by DEyncourt »

ukimalefu wrote: The whole series was full of unexpected things, but people are complaining now?

whaaaaa :whaa: what I wanted to happen didn't happen! :whaa:

Nope.

Condemn him for being slow but GRR Martin is a VERY thorough writer. He does carefully plot his stories such that often some plotlines unexpectedly shut down at one point only to payoff with benefits and (sometimes bad and unexpected) consequences later on.

Most of this season and ESPECIALLY the final episode had very few such payoffs. The story merely plodded along with scarcely ANY insight on what was going on. For example, [spoiler]for Arya's post-"Song" story Martin would have spent chapters describing how reluctant the potential sailors became once Arya's plan became clear, how she was forced to bribe the families of those sailors who did join her crew with gold in advance of sailing, how she caught a plot among some of the sailors who planned to take over the ship once Westeros sank below the horizon and what she did to quell the potential for such an uprising, and so forth.

Instead all we see is the crew for Arya's ship diligently working behind Arya who stares off into the west.[/spoiler]
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Post by ukimalefu »

Books can explain things in detail, tv shows can't.

My guess was, [spoiler](I don't know why I'm spoiler tagging this, but I'll do it anyway) Arya killed The Night King and people know that. She's also The new King's sister. And/or, she killed the first guy that said no, and then found all the help she wanted.[/spoiler]

I'll accept that maybe the last 2 seasons were rushed, that's a complain that could be made. The first 6 seasons were 10 episodes, season 7 had 7 episodes, and season 8 had 6.
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Post by DukeofNuke »

D&D had to wing it after the show passed up the books in, what was it, season 5?
Then HBO said, "This can't go on forever. You need to wrap this up, and we're only going to pay for two more seasons."
One question that was never resolved was, "Is Tyrion a Lannister?"
All the clues were there. He was described as a monster when he was born, with scales and a tail (just like Dani's baby), and the dragons didn't eat him when he visited them, unaccompanied by Daeneris, (which also hints at their intelligence and a psy link with Targarens). I don't recall the story about how Aerys raped Joanna Lannister being mentioned in the show, but it is believed that he, not Tywin, is the father of Tyrion.
But those lose ends never did get tied up.
A LOT of things in the books didn't make it to the show. I remain not disappointed.
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don't you try to out-meme me, boy!
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Post by DEyncourt »

ukimalefu wrote: Books can explain things in detail, tv shows can't.

Sure, but a superior writer can add at least some details to the script while inferior writers can fail to understand that superior writer's nuances.
My guess was, [spoiler](I don't know why I'm spoiler tagging this, but I'll do it anyway) Arya killed The Night King and people know that. She's also The new King's sister. And/or, she killed the first guy that said no, and then found all the help she wanted.[/spoiler]
[snip]

You don't think that [spoiler]Arya killing that first guy would merely create a WIDE bubble around her the next time she got to any place that sailors gathered: "There she is! RUN!!!"

Your other points aren't very likely to motivate anyone to join her crew. Y'know, something about being able to live rather than joining my theoretical Edmure the Lost.[/spoiler]
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Post by jkahless »

DEyncourt wrote:
ukimalefu wrote: Books can explain things in detail, tv shows can't.

Sure, but a superior writer can add at least some details to the script while inferior writers can fail to understand that superior writer's nuances.
My guess was, [spoiler](I don't know why I'm spoiler tagging this, but I'll do it anyway) Arya killed The Night King and people know that. She's also The new King's sister. And/or, she killed the first guy that said no, and then found all the help she wanted.[/spoiler]
[snip]

You don't think that [spoiler]Arya killing that first guy would merely create a WIDE bubble around her the next time she got to any place that sailors gathered: "There she is! RUN!!!"

Your other points aren't very likely to motivate anyone to join her crew. Y'know, something about being able to live rather than joining my theoretical Edmure the Lost.[/spoiler]


[spoiler]Shes sister to two monarchs. No matter the risk, someone will take that chance, the potential reward would be immeasurable. That’s even if she isn’t going, and she is, a legendary assassin. She’d get volunteers, and if she’s picked a good captain, maybe even good ones.[/spoiler]
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Post by DukeofNuke »

Columbus got sailors. Magellan got sailors. Arya Stark got sailors.
Sailing under the Stark sigil , btw.
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DukeofNuke wrote: D&D had to wing it after the show passed up the books in, what was it, season 5?
Then HBO said, "This can't go on forever. You need to wrap this up, and we're only going to pay for two more seasons."

The TV series bypassed the books midway through season 6, I believe, though it depended upon the exact storyline as to precisely which episode.

GRR Martin did write SOME of the later scripts, at least in season 7. My guess is that your latter restraint above forced the show runners to give it their best attempt (and miserably failing at that).
One question that was never resolved was, "Is Tyrion a Lannister?"
All the clues were there. He was described as a monster when he was born, with scales and a tail (just like Dani's baby), and the dragons didn't eat him when he visited them, unaccompanied by Daeneris, (which also hints at their intelligence and a psy link with Targarens). I don't recall the story about how Aerys raped Joanna Lannister being mentioned in the show, but it is believed that he, not Tywin, is the father of Tyrion.
But those lose ends never did get tied up.
[snip]

Baby Tyrion was ONLY described by rumor as such. Remember that in season 5 (and in the books) just before Oberyn volunteered to be Tyrion's champion in his trial by combat Oberyn described how young Cersei had snuck in his teenaged self along with his sister Alia into the room at Casterly Rock with Tyrion's crib, AND how Oberyn was SO very disappointed that ALL of those descriptors proved NOT to be true (and how were those alleged defects--aside from dwarfism--corrected, by a maester of plastic surgery?).

There was nothing in either the books or the TV series about "Mad King" Aerys or any other Targaryen male raping or swooning Joanna Lannister, Tyrion's mother.

There was only ever an IMPLIED psychic connection between the dragons and the Targaryens. In neither the books or the TV series were there any scenes or anything which established such a familial linkage. Daenerys' close connection to the dragons could be a form of mother-infant bonding, sort of like how baby ducklings will follow a human who was present when they hatched. Of course Daenerys would have strengthened that bond by hand-feeding them while the dragons were small, so her title of "Mother of Dragons" may not have been much of an exaggeration considering she had done that required work as their substitute mother.

If GRR Martin wanted a psychic connection between the Targaryens and the dragons, I'm pretty sure that he would have been written something which made that clear.

Do recall that when later in season 5 while in Mereen Daenerys was treating the dragons as "bad dogs" by having them kept in a vast chamber (wait: how can anyone create a MUCH-larger-than-dragon-sized chamber within a pyramid? A very unwise feature considering the tremendous weight of the pyramid above those chambers. I guess GRR Martin isn't any sort of structural engineer) away from sunlight for having killed the child of one of her subjects. It could be that the dragons were simply curious about this different human who was NOT one of their keepers/feeders, AND the dragons not eating Tyrion demonstrated that they had learned their lesson from their punishment ("Don't eat or burn until Mom says OK").
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Post by ukimalefu »

how can anyone create a MUCH-larger-than-dragon-sized chamber within a pyramid?

It-is-fantasy.

If you can accept dragons, then stop worrying about engineering and physics.
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DEyncourt wrote: (wait: how can anyone create a MUCH-larger-than-dragon-sized chamber within a pyramid? A very unwise feature considering the tremendous weight of the pyramid above those chambers. I guess GRR Martin isn't any sort of structural engineer)


If you want to do it there are multiple ways.
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Post by maurvir »

Depending on how it is built, it is quite possible to build a pyramid with large open cavities. Image

While that one may be a special case (made of steel and glass), it is quite possible to build a similar stone structure as long as the loads are handled correctly.
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Post by DEyncourt »

DukeofNuke wrote: Columbus got sailors. Magellan got sailors. Arya Stark got sailors.
[snip]

Magellan sailed partway around the world (one of his captains actually led the completion of the fleet's circumnavigation after Magellan died in the Phillipines), but both he and Columbus held out the reward of the riches of the Orient for their sailors.

Arya held out...what? Adventure? The curiosity of exploration?

A BETTER writer might have had Arya offer the reward of visiting the legendary eastern cities of Leng and Carcosa, but I believe that at least in the books that those cities still had considerable magic so any Westerosi would have been at such a disadvantage that their chances of leaving either city without becoming enslaved were extremely slim. There was also a (metaphysical?) darkness that held sway over those eastern cities such that there were few visitors who survived sailing EASTward along the southern coast of Essos.

Or (more probably) GRR Martin made those eastern cities so very foreboding just so he could avoid having to write any backhistory for them, much less their interactions with any lands to their west like Westeros.

GRR Martin provided no maps or estimates of how extensive the seas were between those eastern cities and Westeros. It could be that the reason why no one had crossed in either direction is that the ocean between them is so vast that no one could carry enough supplies and water to make it across. Columbus himself had made a significant lowball estimate of the distance between Europe and China. Had the Americas and their surrounding islands NOT been where they are almost completely blocking his way to China, Columbus might have sailed on westward for a couple more months before running out of his supplies, thus joining that list of unknowns who never returned.
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Post by macnuke »

ukimalefu wrote: how can anyone create a MUCH-larger-than-dragon-sized chamber within a pyramid?

It-is-fantasy.

If you can accept dragons, then stop worrying about engineering and physics.



this.

There are no illegitimate children...only illegitimate parents.

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Post by maurvir »

DEyncourt wrote:Columbus himself had made a significant lowball estimate of the distance between Europe and China. Had the Americas and their surrounding islands hadn't been where they are almost completely blocking his way to China, Columbus might have sailed on westward for a couple more months before running out of his supplies, thus joining that list of unknowns who never returned.


Based on my reading of the way he treated the locals when he arrived, it's rather a shame he didn't. :squint:
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Post by DEyncourt »

jkahless wrote:
DEyncourt wrote: (wait: how can anyone create a MUCH-larger-than-dragon-sized chamber within a pyramid? A very unwise feature considering the tremendous weight of the pyramid above those chambers. I guess GRR Martin isn't any sort of structural engineer)


If you want to do it there are multiple ways.

Sure, with Ancient Greece-level mechanics such as archways and medieval-level mechanics such as flying buttresses one can build considerably more airy and lightweight structures.

But people do not build pyramids when the above were known, if only because the sheer cost of the stonework required to make any pyramid.

Sure, the Ancient Egyptian pyramids were built to be tombs for their pharoahs and so they were built with relatively tiny openings to serve as their eventual (not-so-)resting places (that parenthetical added because apparently most if not all of the pyramids were looted before even most people who worked on a given pyramid were dead) and narrow passageways into those places.

But that Mereen pyramid? If I recall this correctly those big chambers in which the dragons were kept for their punishment were at or even BELOW ground level (perhaps an argument could be made that originally they were AT ground level but over the intervening time since construction the debris of mankind raised the outside levels such that those chambers were now many feet below that outside level). Those chambers featured many columns to support the upper levels of the pyramid, so these columns were topped by what? A vaulted ceiling such as can be found in medieval cathedrals? Sorry, but such vaulting is basically a three-dimensional extension of archways and often required the use of flying buttresses to counteract the outward pressure caused by that vaulting. Can you name any structure which features vaulted ceilings where that ceiling was required to carry the millions of tons of cut stone contained in the rest of the pyramid above?

Beyond the architectural problems the question must be asked: why build such huge and apparently empty chambers? In anticipation of a ruler who needed to keep her dragons in town? Maybe they just stored grain in there or huge weapons like Euron Greyjoy's ballistas? Or was this simply a mistake of convenience made by the usually meticulous GRR Martin?
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Post by jkahless »

DEyncourt wrote:
jkahless wrote:
DEyncourt wrote: (wait: how can anyone create a MUCH-larger-than-dragon-sized chamber within a pyramid? A very unwise feature considering the tremendous weight of the pyramid above those chambers. I guess GRR Martin isn't any sort of structural engineer)


If you want to do it there are multiple ways.

Sure, with Ancient Greece-level mechanics such as archways and medieval-level mechanics such as flying buttresses one can build considerably more airy and lightweight structures.

But people do not build pyramids when the above were known, if only because the sheer cost of the stonework required to make any pyramid.

Sure, the Ancient Egyptian pyramids were built to be tombs for their pharoahs and so they were built with relatively tiny openings to serve as their eventual (not-so-)resting places (that parenthetical added because apparently most if not all of the pyramids were looted before even most people who worked on a given pyramid were dead) and narrow passageways into those places.

But that Mereen pyramid? If I recall this correctly those big chambers in which the dragons were kept for their punishment were at or even BELOW ground level (perhaps an argument could be made that originally they were AT ground level but over the intervening time since construction the debris of mankind raised the outside levels such that those chambers were now many feet below that outside level). Those chambers featured many columns to support the upper levels of the pyramid, so these columns were topped by what? A vaulted ceiling such as can be found in medieval cathedrals? Sorry, but such vaulting is basically a three-dimensional extension of archways and often required the use of flying buttresses to counteract the outward pressure caused by that vaulting. Can you name any structure which features vaulted ceilings where that ceiling was required to carry the millions of tons of cut stone contained in the rest of the pyramid above?

Beyond the architectural problems the question must be asked: why build such huge and apparently empty chambers? In anticipation of a ruler who needed to keep her dragons in town? Maybe they just stored grain in there or huge weapons like Euron Greyjoy's ballistas? Or was this simply a mistake of convenience made by the usually meticulous GRR Martin?


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If you’re ok with the scale, you could have scaffolding inside that was removed after construction. Construction takes place on a massive scale in this world.
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TOS
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Post by TOS »

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DEyncourt
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Post by DEyncourt »

Mind you, I AM much more forgiving when a good story is well told. Heck, sometimes even when a good story is told in a so-so manner, or a so-so story is well told.

But the last season and especially the last episode for GoT really sucked especially when contrasted against MOST of the rest of the series. For this reason my critic blades have come out in force such that I will be noting previous problems as I come across them such as that dragon chamber within the Mereen pyramid.
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user
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You also get to see them blasting their way out of that pyramid.
Aw, he's no fun, he fell right over.

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...so I'm supposed to find the Shadow King from inside a daiquiri?
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ukimalefu
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Post by ukimalefu »

The GoT Olympics are great :up:
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